'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

I have come across the " I don't shake hands with women" - lots of times.

Stealth, so was mine.

When does British norms trump everything else?

In this it's British law rather than British norms. And that trumps everything else because it's the law. However in this case we are all very fortunate that there is an alternative (shaking nobody's hand) which respects everybody's norms. It's excluding just women from handshakes which is expecting your norms to trump those of others.

Sorry but that is rubbish. What if I openly said I don't shake hands with gay people or with black people? Have I got 'as much right as anyone' not to shake hands with whoever I choose?

The point is, he's not shaking hands because he's a misogynist or a racist or anti-this, anti-that. It's a respect thing, not a 'choice' things. He hasn't 'chosen' this. It's not an action born of intolerance, even if it comes across that way. It's part of his culture. It is what it is. Did anybody die? No. What's the big deal?

Elton

Exactly.

Is "did anyone die" the standard we're applying now?
In which case I have to ask who would die if he shook a woman's hand?

When does British norms trump everything else?

..when you’re in Britain

I think the 'bg deal' is that it's an obscurity that can be used to raise up a bit of expression of intolerance against anyone/everyone who isn't quite British and conforms to every cultural norm, real or imagined.

Rebecca You seem to be rating Yourself quite highly. So the diamond dealer lost out on your money and possible 4 transactions...he will have made those numbers up with 5 other customers who didn’t give a shit about handshakes. He must be doing something right if he has a shop in the UK’s diamond trade capital. People like you won’t make a dent in his earnings, so stop the stupidity.

Hate - I'll say again, you have no idea. Give it up, love.

Don’t “love” me, you patronising twat.

Mr pan speak for yourself. You are wildly overreacting. Maybe you need a little lie down dear.

For some women it may be a fairly big deal. Why are some posters so belittling of that?

TheVanguard

it's a respect thing in his opinion.

And some people may think that using "simple words" is kinder when talking to... black people / women / Muslims etc...

TheVanguard you have no idea why he wouldn't shake a woman's hand, you weren't there and you can't read minds. The man may well have held misogynistic views, we have no idea. The point is the law cannot police anyone's mind, it can only police their actions.

Yes I wouldn't feel respected. I'd feel belittled

Not shaking hands with woman is a cultural issue, not a religious one for some strict Muslim men. It's not actually a requirement of their religion and is therefore not classed as part of the protected characteristic of that religion.

As an example he can claim exemption from eating pork because it is a specific requirement of Islam not to.

I hate it when religious requirements and religious preferences are conflated because it starts to become a licence to do all sorts of offensive bullshit and then use your religion as way to get away with it.

Same detail with Hijabs. They are not a requirement of Islam and are not protected as part of the protected characteristics of Islam.

But unless a person is actually offering handshakes (as a service) or making it abundantly clear that they are part of a "service package"?

I was actually responding to a specific question about it being legal for the religious to discriminate against gay people there. If someone is an employee then it would come under E&D as discrimination against someone on the basis of their sex. And as people have repeatedly pointed out, there is the perfectly reasonable alternative of shaking nobody's hand. Which both fulfills the wish not to touch women, and doesn't discriminate. This is fine religiously because for the last bloody time there is no religious requirement to shake hands with men.

Likewise, if it is a client a business would be reasonable to refused to do business with a client who was politely asked to follow the 'everybody or nobody' rule but refused to do so. If such a person was to take that case to court on the basis they had been religiously discriminated against by being refused service, they would lose because the company were perfectly happy to serve them if they made a small adjustment which allowed them to fulfill their religious requirements but also allowed women to work in an environment free from discrimination. If they were forced to shake hands with women to get a service they would have a case. But fortunately that's entirely unnecessary.

Perhaps MrPan is experiencing 'testosterone vapours'?

Rebecca, I'd just leave that response to you to hang. The only person made to look a tw*t around here is Hate themselves.

By using that very word to a woman they have jut shown how very little respect they have for the sex.

Thank you for your kind suggestion Stealth...but not necessary.

But yes I will speak for myself, and offer an analysis.

No over-reaction, just a note that the OP provides a platform for this rubbish, over what he/she illustrates as a sleight ( even the OP statement is inconsistent) and sits back.....grounds to be a little suspicious.

Hmmm. I had similar years ago with an insurance claim that I was investigating on behalf of an insurer. The male claimant refused to deal with me and asked, via his male broker, to deal with a male investigator. His objection was on religious grounds. To me it just felt like misogyny.

Fortunately there were no male investigators in the dept, plus the company took a no nonsense approach....'this is our investigator, there is no alternative, if you want your claim to be paid you deal with our investigator otherwise it cannot be paid'.

The religious objections dried up immediately. Funny that. I investigated and interviewe the claimant, he completely failed to burst into flames when meeting with me and the claim was ultimately paid.

Misogynistic nonsense dressed up as religion. I seldom encounter it in business...the objections miraculously disappear as soon as money is involved.

Perhaps MrPan is experiencing 'testosterone vapours'? That's it!