'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

A customer smiles but doesn't buy.

I can't see how the man would perceive rudeness. It might have been the price or the style that had not been right.

Sooooooo in British culture it is respectful to shake women's hands as well as men's.
Does that not matter?

Of course it matters . Which is why I think the man was being rude and insensitive to the culture around him. If you had read my whole post .

@scottishdiem
I’d be totally fine with that!

That has been addressed many times. If a man does not wish to shake hands with women he shouldn't shake hands at all. It's not rocket science

I would have felt bad and maybe even a bit reduced to just a sex if he shook everyone else's hands and not mine. If it is too intimate for me, then it is too intimate for the males too. Better to have been similarly polite and respectful to everyone and done the hand on chest and nod to all.

However, I am happy not to shake hands and do an effusive nod. Maybe a little wave. And as for greeting kisses.... . It kills me. One air peck is ok. It is when they do the marathon. People who go for the two or three kiss greeting are way too much in my space. Having said that, it is cultural so I just have to understand they are being very nice and proper in their own way.

Yes but as a woman your feelings don't matter. Sorry.

Can I ask those frothing at the mouth over this: how would you deal with it in a workplace? Would the people doing this be forced to shake hands with the opposite sex? Would you force someone to make physical contact with people they don’t wish to touch?

No, I obviously wouldn't. I'd simply do my job.

And Keep my thoughts about this person to myself.

There was recently a case in Switzerland of two school boys refusing to shake their teacher's hand.

This did go to court, btw.

Just don’t fucking shake anyone’s hand
It’s not fucking rocket science

You've accused us all of tbe vapours or similar a few times now. It's quite demeaning. Please stop it.
(I'm not in tears or shaking with upset before you ask. Just a bit pissed off)

What are "pink vapurs"...?

*o

Would you force someone to make physical contact with people they don’t wish to touch?

No, as has been said repeatedly, the solution is to shake nobody's hand. There is no religious requirement that you MUST shake hands with men. So shaking nobody's hand means he is both fulfilling what he sees as a religious obligation, and also fulfilling the legal requirement not to discriminate.

The way the law stands at the moment, reasonable adjustments are made for religious requirements. So disposable arm covers are given to Muslim nurses, people can decline to shake the hands of everybody, people can pray and make up the time at the end of their shift.

But if you cannot do an essential part of your job you can be dismissed. So a gynae who won't touch women or a registrar who won't marry gay people can be dismissed. Equality and discrimination is part of everybody's job and part of people's contract usually involves adhering to the companies E&D policy. So if somebody repeatedly refused to agree to stick to the 'everybody or nobody' rule re handshaking and just shook men's hands you could technically be sacked. Although you probably won't be because everyone is too shit scared of challenging discriminatory practices in Islam even whenitis reasonable to do so.

Elton, you talk sense and are spot on.

Oh, Pan, pink vapours, really? Is that an attempt at humour? Is it just your way to belittle women's opinions? Do you care to rephrase your incredibly sexist language?

Shaking hands is polite and an expression of formal greeting in UK society. Those who do not adhere to this tradition are being ill mannered. It speaks volumes about them and frankly I would not want to be in the same space as such boors.

I agree with elton

I think while such discussions tend - very predictably - to focus on Islamic culture, orthodox Judaism has similar prohibitions. And in certain Christian groups men will eschew certain forms of social contact with women. www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/mike-pences-marriage-and-the-beliefs-that-keep-women-from-power

I also think that in the UK there are a large number of single sex schools - some independent with charitable status and some receiving state funding - most of which pre-date the recent increase/promotion of 'faith' schools.

So if there is a problem about gender separation I'd argue very strongly that it isn't about one particular faith or culture, and that we ought to look at UK 'Christian' culture very carefully indeed.

You can not discriminate against someone who refuses to shake hands because of religion - that is the law.

What happens if a particular religion's holy book dictates that it must discriminate against certain people for example women, people of other religions, gay people? Why does a belief system (basically an outdated book written years ago by a load of men) trump equal rights?

Would a gay person have rights in law to refuse to work with a religious Muslim or Jewish person because of their respective religions attitude to homosexuality? Surely a gay person's "belief" that homophobia is prejudice and should be rejected should have just as much right in law, as the beliefs of a religious person that homosexuality is wrong? Or is there a hierarchy of beliefs and some are considered right and some are considered wrong? Who arbitrates which beliefs should be protected by law and which should not?

I wonder if the man who refused to shake the ops hand has had a sit down and thought about the impact of this particular manifestation of his religious beliefs?
Either he hasn't or perhaps it went something like this:
Hmmn, I don't shake womens' hands, maybe it would be best if I don't shake anyone's hand? But then the men might think i was being rude so I'd better still apply that cultural norm. The women whose hands I don't shake, well they'll just have to deal with it, right?

Ultimately, he doesn't seem to give a shit at how uncomfortable he might make women feel. He ought to eschew touching of any kind so as not to single anyone out.

Have you not noticed that religions are allowed legally to discriminate against gay people?
I don't agree with this by the way, but it is the law.

Mothertruck3r - don’t forget Christians in your tirade against religions there. It’s not just Muslims that state it’s a sin to be homosexual.

And to add to my post upthread... some people take the view that the op should be expected to be culturally aware and inclusive and not take his shun personally as it's just his religious beliefs. Ought the holder of those religious beliefs also not be expected to reflect on the impact of his applying those beliefs within a business setting? Tolerance and respect works both ways. So he either hasn't done that in any capacity, or he has and he's just thought, fuck it women will just have to deal.

I am Catholic but if I was in say a Muslim country I would adhere to their practices to conform as would probably be expected in a similar situation. I think the same should apply in this situation. The man was rude in my opinion.

Context is everything.

People can decide who to shake hands with, greet, talk with, ignore as much as they want.

However, this meeting had the context of a professional business environment and the OP correctly has the expectation of being treated equal and professional. Professional situations have a certain generally accepted protocols, and shaking hands in a polite manner is definitely one of them.

If I was the OPs boss I would have made a comment immediately and apologised to the OP in front of the customer and concluded the meeting.

The customer could go elsewhere.