'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

Oh bollocks.

All of the current issues in society religious , gender id etc are about “respect of women” or “protecting women” but they all have one thing in common. Women have to put up and shut up out of “respect”. Total joke. Say anything against it and you are an isalm or trans phobic. No I am a woman who is standing up for my rights and the rights of other women.

I work in a community that is heavily Muslim. At one point at work recently - towards the end of a transaction - a man seemed to be extending his hand to me so I shook it.

In fact he'd been holding out a business card for me to take.

I felt a little uncomfortable about having taken his hand when it was not really offered to me.

I would not want to touch somebody who felt uncomfortable with my touch. As a yound woman I have experienced all sorts of unwanted touching from people who were 'just being friendly'. I was 'uptight' or 'silly' to dislike it.

If I have a right not to experience unwanted touching, then that right must be extended to others.

It is perfectly possible to have respectful friendly communication without any kind of physical contact.

I have a colleague who does the same, although I have to say it has never bothered me in the slightest. I just found it a little 'odd' the first time I met him.

He is a strict Muslim and therefore if that's what his religion asks of him then who am I to challenge it? (despite being an atheist myself).

If we don't like displays of religion then can we please

1. Disestablish the church of England
2. Remove Bishops from the House of Lords.
3. Close all religious schools.
4. Remove all religious displays at various festival times including the Nativity.
5. Get women to dress Western. Whatever that means.
6. Get men to dress Western. Whatever that means.

If we don't want a person's religion to mean anything to them in a workplace then we shouldn't be tolerating public displays of religion anywhere.

How was I rude, knight?

I smiled at him. I didn't challenge him. I looked at his products. But ultimately I went elsewhere because he'd made me uncomfortable at the beginning.

(Oh, and if you think diamond merchants don't like dealing with people with cash to spend, you're extraordinarily naive as well as someone who jumps to nasty conclusions!)

I think we're very lucky to live somewhere where people generally have good manners and are considerate about others' feelings. Which is why Muslim men who practice non contact are apologetic, and women are happy to let it go.

However.. we should recognise that this act is, like many religious customs, discriminatory against women.

It is very rude to publicly treat women differently from their male colleagues. It might be equally as rude to publicly challenge someone's religious customs.

I can't agree at all with those who suggest that this is a non issue and is simply a result of religious customs and doesn't cause any harm. To ignore a discriminatory act because it's rooted in religious custom sets a very dangerous precedent.

This is a religious thing - men don't touch women they're not related to. It's actually a way of being respectful but clearly lost in translation. It's not at all to do with thinking women are inferior/unpure or discriminating etc. In Muslim countries practicing women would be very offended if a man tried to shake their hand. It also includes not flirting/not making eye contact/being respectful. (studied anthropology - this is my thing). Just a different way of doing things, I have no problem with it.

Please link to my previous comments about burkhas, of which you assume there will be more.

Sooooooo in British culture it is respectful to shake women's hands as well as men's.
Does that not matter?

I have come across this many times. Perfectly legal and any employer sacking a worker for this would find themselves in hot water legally.
But of course it is based on misogyny.

I think there are two different things here - whether it is ok to make any distinction based on sex at work and separately whether the distinction this man made came from a bad place i.e. was mysoginistic or driven by the belief women are inferior or contaminated.

It's a massive assumption that the latter is the case (although perhaps and understandable one). I don't know this guy and nor do I know enough of his beliefs or culture to be sure. However, given that it's the norm here to shake people's hands I do think it's incumbent on him to be aware of the potential impact and develop a way to handle it sensitively.

As to the first point, it's not much different to some places where men insist on waiting for women to leave the lift first or open doors for them when they don't for men - a distinction based on sex. Personally it doesn't bother me in circumstances where the prevailing culture is an equal one - it's just a social quirk - but I respect the fact it bothers others. In the view is there should be no action at work which distinguishes based on sex, the man should shake no ones hand of course.

Whilst I fully appreciate that sensitivities about distinction based on sex to some degree can't be separated from the reasons for it - I do think it's worth a pause before condemning a man as a mysoginist for doing so given his cultural norms. Same for the man who opens the door etc.

It's a religious thing - but Britain is a secular country. Does that mean that anyone's religious or cultural beliefs should triumph over our culture?

Where do we draw the line with that, then?!

Britain is not a secular country.Legally it is a Christian country

Why do certain belief systems trump everything else when it comes to respecting other people? Would it be ok for a non-Jewish man to refuse to shake hands with an Orthodox Jew because the non-Jewish man's belief system deemed Orthodox Jewish men primitive and dirty? Presumably it would as it is his belief system and he has every right to practice his beliefs?

I’ve had a rep turn down a handshake. I didn’t think much of it at the time but his female boss was mortified and called me later to apologise. If he had shaken male colleagues hands in front of me before refusing I would be most put out and commented on it. The polite thing to do is not shake anyone’s hand

I would send a strongly worded email to HR and senior management, questioning why the company is maintaining a relationship with this client.

Ask the company to clarify its position on what behaviour is ok from clients.

Ask whether it be ok for a client to refuse to shake hands with a gay or black employee.

Ask whether you as an employee would be permitted to refuse to shake hands with only certain clients in a group meeting.

If the company will allow this, then ask them to clarify what groups of clients you as an employee are allowed to refuse. Just females, or can you select other groups?

Rebecca

But ultimately I went elsewhere because he'd made me uncomfortable at the beginning.

I very much doubt he intended to make you uncomfortable - you took offence where none was intended.

You were rude because you were in a position of power and used that to 'punish' him for setting his boundaries by taking your business elsewhere.

Or did you think that because you were 'buying' you were entitled to make him feel uncomfortable? Was that part of the sale?

screaming

Exactly.

I used to work with a Jewish woman. She simply didn't shake hands.

That's a much better solution imo.
What this man did is imo offensive and inappropriate.

I obviously respect his right to do it but I still think that it's extremely rude.
Which is my right, btw.

No response to my request

ADark

Not buying a ring in a certain store isn't being rude.
That was her right.

Just awful. If you choose to live in the U.K. you should abide by its laws and customs.

To behave in this mysogynistic way towards women is designed to be deliberately inflammatory. Pure arrogant offensive bullshit. Imagine it if in the U.K. a woman turned round to him and said I can't shake your hand because you are a Muslim. There would be entirely justifiable outrage. But hey, coz it's directed at a woman it's ok? Fuck that.

I have a daughter, I do not wish her to grow up with this nonsense so would always challenge it whenever possible.

You can not discriminate against someone who refuses to shake hands because of religion - that is the law. So all those talking about going to HR - HR will simply tell you what the law is.

Head tilt “That’s rude” walk away.

Rebecca with him being a diamond dealer in London, I really doubt he missed your wad of cash 😆.

Can I ask those frothing at the mouth over this: how would you deal with it in a workplace? Would the people doing this be forced to shake hands with the opposite sex? Would you force someone to make physical contact with people they don’t wish to touch?