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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

'I don't shake women's hands'

846 replies

canary1 · 08/02/2018 21:55

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

OP posts:
MaisyPops · 09/02/2018 07:32

Peopel of whatever race/creeed/sex/age have a right to choose who they have flesh-flesh contact with - it's common sense and obvious, and that goes for a muslim male, for whatver reason he chooses to express.
To complain is quite pathetic and quite ego-driven. Get over yourself.

Anyone has the right to refuse bodily contact. However basic courtesy and manners is to act in consideration of others.
If someone does not wish to shake hands witj a someone of the opposite sex because of their beliefs, fine. I don't agree (& wondee how this fits in with a society which had openly gay and lesbian people in it) but fine.
However, it is polite to refrain from any handshaking if that's their stance. Not make a big thing of man, man, man, oh not you. I don't shake hands with women

Roomba · 09/02/2018 07:33

I've encountered similar before but wouldn't get offended if it was done politely. I wouldn't want to feel forced to touch someone I didn't want to touch, I suppose, even if I do think their reasoning is sexist.

For example, a few times in shops I've been served by guys who don't wish to take money from women's hands in case they touch them. In most cases it was done politely so you barely noticed - they used a little tray for you to put the cash in and then slid it back with change. Only once did I have a man refuse to take cash from my hand and he barked at me to just out it on the counter. I was confused especially as he was really grumpy about it. Then he out my change on the counter too and I twigged why he'd done it as I watched him take cash straight from the next (male) customers hand. Made me feel a bit aggrieved that I was seen as unclean or something, but I think this was entirely due to the manner in which it was done. Lack of manners offended me, not him exercising his beliefs.

Probably not making much sense sorry, I'm not well and not had my coffee yet!

ferrier · 09/02/2018 07:38

If you follow that line of thinking then it's ok to go white guy, white guy, white guy, oh not you you're black.

MissWimpyDimple · 09/02/2018 07:48

It's happened to me with a Rabbi. But this was in an ultra orthodox neighbourhood in Tel Aviv so I let it slide!

At work in the UK I would not be happy. Either no one or everyone

AssassinatedBeauty · 09/02/2018 07:48

There are still people posting who seem to think that people are advocating for enforced hand shaking! No. It's everyone's personal choice about who they want to touch. No one is suggesting that men shake hands with women if it is against their beliefs. But if that's the case, just refrain from shaking anyone's hand, to avoid singling out women in the workplace and treating them differently to the men. That's all.

NauticalDisaster · 09/02/2018 07:53

It's not religious practice though, is it? It is a cultural thing. I am so tired of discrimination being prettied up as religious right and then being told I am the bigot because I don't hold religion up as the be all, end all trump.

Regardless of that though, in the UK everyone should be treated the same, he should have shook hands with everyone or no one.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 09/02/2018 07:53

It utterly wrong but at present, religious rights trump all.

This isn't true. It's illegal to discriminate against people with protected characteristics on religious grounds when providing most services (religious services excluded).

There have been a couple of successful cases, one a Christian bakery in Northern Ireland which refused to make a gay rights cake and another a Christian B&B which refused to provide a double room to a gay couple.

The people who bring these cases are never, ever brave enough to target Muslim businesses because they fear on the one hand Muslim fundamentalist and on the left cries of 'racism', 'islamaphobe'. So Islam is effectively excluded from those laws.

Religion in general doesn't trump everything, only Islam. This is because the left wing and liberals enforce a right apex of social justice which Muslims are firmly at the top of and therefore discrimination against all other groups below them in that pyramid is tolerated.

eg my wife does not wish to shake anyone's hand. is she being rude? I don't think so. She has a right to do with her hands what she wishes, and clasping someone else's is her right to choose.

As has been said multiple times, if your wife refused to shake hands with a Muslim, a Jew or a black person it would not be okay and she would probably have been escorted from the premises and told to shove her business up her arse.

If someone wishes not to shake hands they need to not shake hands with anybody, not discriminate. Other people also have the right to think she is a rude dickhead if she chooses to shake some people's hands while ignoring others, because she would be.

FluffyWuffy100 · 09/02/2018 07:58

I can’t believe anyone thinks this is fine. You should refrain from shaking anyone’s hand in a work context if you have an issue with a certain section of society.

Good to meet you.

Oh, not you, I don’t touch black people.

MistressPage · 09/02/2018 08:04

Religion really is bullshit isn't it.

newsparklythings · 09/02/2018 08:07

If you follow that line of thinking then it's ok to go white guy, white guy, white guy, oh not you you're black.

Which shows how disgraceful it is. Only women are supposed to put up with it? Hmm

GeorgeTheHamster · 09/02/2018 08:09

If men like this want us to understand and accept their culture then they need to understand and respect ours. I have been in this situation twice. One man eyeballed me and refused to shake my hand. I thought he was a twat. The other put his hand behind his body (to give the cue not to touch) and gave a little bow. I didn't think he was a twat.

MrPan · 09/02/2018 08:14

Lordy, it's not "everyone or no-one", it's a personal 'right' to choose. IF someone is choosing to not shake hands with a woman as to do so compromises his religious practice, fine. Similarly, if someone is choosing to not do it as they are a massive racist then also fine.
MrsPan and I and everyone else shouldn't be under the cosh of the expectation of the pressing of the flesh.

In htis instance, the muslim male is choosing to not shake hands with the OP for reasons not explained BUT it won't be for 'you're not worth shaking hands with' which appears to be the default setting on this thread.

ADarkandStormyKnight · 09/02/2018 08:14

George that illustrates that not shaking hands isn't in itself disrespectful.

If offense isn't intended, none should be taken. It would be very rude to insist and make someone uncomfortable.

MrPan · 09/02/2018 08:18

George - the man is understanding 'our culture'...though I don't think that is set - lots of meetings and social circs DON'T give rise to hand shaking.

Though of course all of this may well just be a stealth way of triggering lots of anti-muslim/religion posts. We OP's presentation seems to be that sort of attempt to whip up.

ChesterBelloc · 09/02/2018 08:19

"He shouldn't be working really, should he?

Shaking hands is just proper business étiquette."

"Why don’t you fuck off from whence you came then? I’m sure you’ll find your own kind there."

Just......wow. So sexism is beyond the pale, but racism and cultural imperialism is fine?

I'm pretty sure most of the horrified shrieking on this thread is being done by liberal left-leaning 'feminists' who think Multiculturalism is a great idea in theory.

MiserableAsSin · 09/02/2018 08:20

So many of the usual misconceptions on here. It's nothing to do with women being inferior or with being respectful to ones wife . In theory, practising Muslim women don't touch unmarried / unrelated men and vice versa . He was being rude and culturally insensitive to have said it like that though .

Eltonjohnssyrup · 09/02/2018 08:20

MrsPan and I and everyone else shouldn't be under the cosh of the expectation of the pressing of the flesh.

You're under no obligation to 'press the flesh' or to talk like Mr Brittas. But you are under an obligation to treat everybody with equal dignity and respect. So shaking hands with nobody - fine. Picking and choosing who who you shake hands with based on their characteristics, not fine.

You may be perfectly happy to work alongside people who would single out people for disrespectful treatment, but nobody else is under any obligation to think anything other than people who do that are massive megawankers who they neither wish to work with nor do business with. If someone refused the everybody or nobody rule it would probably be grounds for sacking.

Rebeccaslicker · 09/02/2018 08:21

I've only come across this once with an orthodox Jewish man.

Personally I think it's rude to allow your cultural beliefs to override the customs of the country you are in. After all, I'm British - yet if I went to a strict Muslim country, I wouldn't enforce my cultural beliefs of wearing a bikini that I'm too fat and pale for whilst swigging lager in the streets and shouting "come and 'ave a go if you think you're 'ard enough!"

Being serious though, if you're going to another country, you absolutely should research their culture and traditions so you don't offend. The punishment in a strict Muslim country for being offensive would be harsh. Why is it OK to ignore what Britain considers to be polite?

ladymelbourne1926 · 09/02/2018 08:23

This is not unusual. I used to work in the Middle East and most men explained and offered me a small bow instead. I would have no issue with this. It is his right to not touch anyone he doesn't want to, it's to do with showing due respect.

MrPan · 09/02/2018 08:24

That's rather absurd Elton and more than a bit misinformed. Equalities is NOT about treating everyone the same.

Iprefercoffeetotea · 09/02/2018 08:25

I don't see why religion, which you choose, comes ahead of sex, which you don't (lets forget the trans thing, I'm talking about biological sex).

You don't bring your religion into the workplace.

If he's got such a thing about touching a sinful daughter of Eve, I suggest he gets over himself and wears some cotton gloves.

Why is it OK to ignore what Britain considers to be polite This.

AgainPlease · 09/02/2018 08:26

I have to agree with pretty much everything @ChesterBelloc says

You want to live in a society that allows personal freedoms, equality, and tolerance? Well then that includes freedom of religion and that should be respected.

Iprefercoffeetotea · 09/02/2018 08:26

It is his right to not touch anyone he doesn't want to, it's to do with showing due respect

But NOBODY would think this was acceptable if they said they wouldn't shake hands with a black person. Why is it ok because someone doesn't have a penis?

Eltonjohnssyrup · 09/02/2018 08:31

That's rather absurd Elton and more than a bit misinformed. Equalities is NOT about treating everyone the same

But discrimination is. And this is discrimination.

StealthPolarBear · 09/02/2018 08:33

"
If offense isn't intended, none should be taken"
Utter crap. Suspect this would only ever be aimed at women. Would you say the same to a gay man, offended by someone's well meaning bigotry?

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