Friend leaving baby to cry - do I say something?

[elenen]

I know I'm interfering but would you say something? Friend leaving 8 week premature 10 week old son to cry for "over an hour" every night the past week. Surely he just needs a cuddle do I mention that it's too early to leave him cry or just keep out?

Can’t find the link right now but at breastfeeding training we were told the NICE guidelines advise not leaving a baby under a certain age to cry for more than 15 mins.

I would say that leaving a premature baby as young as your friends is really not good. I’m not being judgey but a baby born 8 weeks early is still very reliant on regular feeds and will massively benefit from being held close to mum.

Hope you can get some support for your friend or at least signpost her to a local mum’s group etc.

Nope, doesn't work like that. You need to show this is a genuine study if you want people to take your points seriously.

Spitz didn't do any experiment like that as far as I can find out.

Thank you johnnycomelately. This bollocks about babies crying causing brain damage is very damaging for parents to hear. What if you have a colicky baby who cries for a lot of their first 6 months?
Babies crying DOES NOT cause brain damage.

And a study was done on baby monkeys. But they were never touched by humans or other monkeys. Yes babies need touch, they can not be totally ignored. But we are not talking about extreme deprivation.

The only verifiable studies I can find that bear any resemblance to the one you quote confused were done on monkeys.

I've also never heard of that study during my degrees and will be off to google.... I know the 40s/50s were not exactly beacons of ethical research (e.g. Milgram) but the only emotional deprivation research I'm aware of is the (heartbreaking) research with Rhesus monkeys and children in orphanages etc as pp have said

Not responding to your baby's crying absolutely damages their development. Anyone interested should have a look at this fantastic TED talk by a highly respected paediatrician. As he says, "it's love and connection that grow and develop an infant's brain".

...and here's the link

m.youtube.com/watch?v=K1slVo3BNtM

If her DS was 8 weeks prem then really he's only like a normal 2 week old baby !!. Or maybe 4 weeks ish, they do seem to catch up faster. My twins were 7 weeks early and I did sometimes put DD in a moses basket in the spare room when she cried, to stop her waking DS - but not when they were that young, and I would never leave a baby for a whole hour! 5 or ten minutes max - if they're still crying after that then they must need some intervention, surely? It breaks your heart - but not sure what you can do........

capricorn I don't know where you have the idea that I don't want to help her from. I was asking if I should mention that leaving him crying isn't the best way to deal with it or to let her get on with things. You don't know how I help in other ways What a strange response

Yes love and connection is crucial for babies, but a baby crying will not be harmed.
Not that I could leave a baby to cry.

Yes, all babies cry. It's obviously their only way of communicating with us for most of their first year so we must accept that sometimes they will cry and this in itself isn't going to damage them. But ignoring that baby's cry for an hour? That is surely teaching your baby that their cries won't be answered and IMO doing some serious long term damage.

I never did crying it out or similar, but I find it really hard to think that someone can watch telly for an hour each night while their tiny baby screams upstairs, especially a baby that should only have been in the world a couple of weeks and would be much happier cuddled with Mummy in front of said telly. :-(

How you mention it without sounding judgey I'm not sure...

it is a newborn, baby was 8 weeks prem so 2 weeks adjusted. Plus they class upto 12 weeks as newborn

I’ve never heard anybody refer to an over 8 week old as a new born.

And unless something fairly drastic has changed in the 4 years since I had my last prem baby you don’t adjust the age to say how old the baby is. It’s done on growth charts and can be used as a indicator of some developmental milestones and not all prem babies will have delayed milestones.
None of that changes the chronological age of the child, you wouldn’t delay there birthday until the due date.

Any way 0 or 12 months I’m not a fan of cry it out sleep training but many people are and some weirdos do it from birth.

Can you approach from a different angle such as mentioning the sids guidelines which say they baby should be in the same room as parent/carer for sleeping when under the age of 6 months?

I would think that being closer to the baby would mean she is more likely to respond.

I would also offer support & speak to HV as i would be concerned about ypur friend too.

Oh & OP i would find the thought of that baby being left to cry unbelievably upsetting

OP, in 2017 when DS was born the midwives talked to me a lot about skin to skin. This helps to bond mother and baby. It produces oxytocin in mother and baby. It calms and soothes baby and also mother. I'm assuming it's still part of the info for new mothers.

Being left to cry alone without human contact is not the same as crying while being held.

If baby was in nicu your friend won't have had the opportunity to do much skin to skin. She might be feeling like it's too late. It's not. I was still doing it up to 3 or 4 months as DS was colicky in the evenings. I remember feeling like I had properly fallen in love with him one night about 8 weeks in when DH had gone away overnight and DS would just not stop screaming. I went to bed and did skin to skin in desperation. It didn't stop him screaming but it did change how I felt about it all.

I'm sorry all arguments aside THIS IS NEGLECT. I suspect she may have a touch of PND but that's still no excuse.
elenen your friend will have a 'red book' find a way to go through it and it should have signposts about PND. If any of those symptoms relate please reassure her there is no stigma and thatvits very common etc and urge her to see her g.p offer to go with her if neccesary. She might not even realise that's she doing wrong you definitely need to speak to her asap...even at the risk of falling out (this is now about the wellbeing of a baby...the friendship is irrelevant) Try to be supportive of course but if she takes no notice you absolutley must contact her health visitor. And I hate to say this but if that doesn't work tell her to seek help for herself or you will have no choice but to contact ss for the sake of the child. You may lose her for this but it should be enough to make her come to her senses...if not then call them. No one in their right mind walks away from a crying infant to go watch telly. Yes babies can cry for that long until their need is met but you should at least attempt to soothe them at the very least stay nearby and let them have the comfort of knowing their not alone. I know people will have their own opinions on this but I'm disgusted. I know it can be stressful and I've allowed myself two to three mins if I'm feeling really overwhelmed but an hour!! wouldn't even leave my toddler to cry for more than 5 mins it would break my heart and he's an independent lil chap he rarely cries though he and even my other 2 dcs have pulled some all nighters in the past. I would be at my wits end but I've never once walked away and left them to exhaust themselves I couldn't not at such a young age. Older kids I get the whole self soothe thing (its not for me but I'm not against it with an older child) but this baby is so young, how could she?
Poor little thing I'm in bits reading this and I do feel sorry for your friend too she's either not well or just plain ignorant. OP please don't ignore this issue....you may well be the only one who knows about this...god forbid something happens to him.

As a mum of a prem baby no no no no.

The baby is TWO WEEKS OLD. It’s not 10 weeks old. IT’S TWO WEEKS OLD developmentally. And the early birth has many consequences for brain development. And leaving A TWO WEEK OLD to cry for an hour isn’t right.

And adjusted age for babies is a thing. Look it up. My 26 weeker will be age adjusted by his consultant paediatrician for the first two years of his life.

So a 32 weeker will not smile at 6-8 weeks. A 32 weeker will be expected to smile closer to four months. In the early months the developmental gap is HUGE. And this is not a late premature baby.

The doctors are very keen to maintain and establish that premature babies need a lot of one on one care and the right stimulation to make up for all the development that didn’t occur in the womb. It’s been stressed at every appointment I have ever had. (And my 26 weeker has almost caught up developmentally).

So no this is not a ten week old, this baby is considered TWO WEEKS OLD developmentally. Corrected age is really fairly standard.

Argh, I would usually say just leave her to it, but this is more or less a newborn baby who should be fed every 2 hours, so no way should he be left for over an hour to cry. Poor thing. Please say something. I am quite direct with friends so would just say it as I see it, but previous posters have given advice on how to initiate the talk.

I can’t believe anyone would condone leaving a small baby to cry for an hour!

Putting aside whether it is or isn’t damaging, if you as an adult had all your other needs met, but were feeling sad and wanted a cuddle from your partner how would you feel if he ignored you?

And when that happens again the second day, then the third... what would you feel? Neglected? Lonely? Stop asking but the feelings would still be there?

A baby feels all of those things - and it’s worse because the only person who can help them in a caregiver - they can’t go watch a feel good movies or read a book that will make them happy. All they can do is cry and ask to be comforted.

Why do people hold babies to higher expectations than fully, functioning adults? It IS cruel and unfair.

Premmies are left to cry in scbu though aren’t they? When their parents aren’t there? I personally wouldn’t leave my baby to cry but they obviously are in some cases (indeed I was in scbu myself. No brain damage that I know of!)

I’ve got to laugh at a trashy book like why love matters being held up as scientific evidence

That sounds really tough!

Although are you sure your friend is leaving her newborn for over an hour crying in a distressed way on its own with no interaction? Not doing the thing where you pat or shh or rapid return or pick up put down, or rock or sing.

If she is genuinely leaving the baby alone for an hour crying in a distressed way (the conclusion most people are jumping too) I would probably gently suggest she has a chat with her health visitor. Or ask her if she needs support? Is she doing it out of desperation or because she is following misguided advice? What is her support like? Does she have the dad on the scene? Or her mum? What do they think? Are they involved?

Also as an aside sleep training done correctly (so with parental reassuring at intervals) at a developmentally appropriate time in an otherwise emotionally healthy home does arguably less harm than chronic sleep deprivation on a growing brain and being parented by chronically sleep deprived parents.

cherrycoke why do think why love matters is trashy? I found it quite interesting when I read it and an accessible introduction into neuro-science. Are there other books in the same theme you would recommend instead ?