Friend leaving baby to cry - do I say something?

[elenen]

I know I'm interfering but would you say something? Friend leaving 8 week premature 10 week old son to cry for "over an hour" every night the past week. Surely he just needs a cuddle do I mention that it's too early to leave him cry or just keep out?

BarbarianMum - I believe it was a Dr.Sears book I read this from - child doctors. It was about a decade ago now but well worth a read. You can say it’s bull shit all you like but I’ll take the experts take on it over a randomer online who thinks it’s okay to leave a newborn crying. Take care

Well it seems to be what people are saying! Leaving a baby to cry isn't a problem, it's just a different parenting style, seems to be the firm message being put across?

Pato, yeah, that's true. And when they stop crying it's not because they've 'self settled' it's because they're in a state similar to shock.

They're developing neural pathways at a ridiculous speed, when the pathway that's consistently used is the one where distress isn't responded to, yes, that is going to have lasting effects.

You don't know how hard this particular mum has had it, or is having it. Nobody does except her.

Guess what Assassinated quite a lot of HV do recommend it (not leaving for an hour, but allowing some crying). Usually when they can see a parent is on their knees with tiredness.

It's not a different parenting style it's bloody cruel! Her baby is 10 weeks old! I was always told you can't spoil a newborn baby! What did she think having a baby would be like? Sounds like the baby is an inconvenience to her.

Why not an hour though? That's ok too, as it doesn't cause any harm. Maybe HVs should be proactive and make sure that all new parents know to leave their babies to cry and not to worry about it. Certainly the ones that I encountered didn't mention it.

You don't know how hard this particular mum has had it, or is having it. Nobody does except her.

Well then by your own logic you've no idea how hard I had it with my DD. It could be "harder" than the OPs friend is having it.

I'm not going to get into "shit early baby experience top trumps" online. Surfice to say that it was all incredibly traumatic (emotionally, physically and medically speaking) and has affected both myself and my DD for years

I'm gonna throw something in here that maybe you didn't think of because you were too far up your own arse judging your 'friend' to sit and think of a reasonable way of helping her out.

Instead of hanging her to dry on a public website asking strangers to gossip and slag off your 'friend' you could have done the following:

Sat and asked how she is getting on
Asked if she thinks baby could have tummy problems
Asked if she has tried a dummy
Ask if she has tried swaddling
Asked if she has tried infacol/comfort milk
Ask if she has tried colic bottles
Ask if baby is teething
Checked if baby is teething
Bought teething gel for your friend to try
Asked if a night light or white noise would help
Ask if baby has reflux and offer help on visiting a doctor about it to get help with that
Offering to help out
Offering to take baby for a few hours so she can get some rest
Picked up suitable medication for numerous different problems babies commonly have and see if anything could help
Had a look at baby to see if you can get an idea of what is wrong with them yourself
Sat with your 'friend' and looked up any symptoms the baby might be having and trying to find out what is wrong
Explained to your 'friend' that things will get easier and you will be there for her
Lend a shoulder to cry on if needed
Ask your 'friend' to come out for dinner one evening while someone else minds her baby
Spoken to your 'friend' about how you coped in the early days
Offered advice and tips on how you settled your child and offer to help your 'friend' try new techniques

Because you know, that's what I would do. Because I am a decent friend. And I understand parenting is fucking hard. And I know you can't always get things right. And I understand and accept that people parent in different ways to me. And that is perfectly acceptable for them to do so.

Maybe that says a lot about mine and your personalities and morals though OP. That your first decision is to air your 'friends' dirty laundry whereas I would actually offer to help out.

stpauls.vxcommunity.com/Issue/Us-Experiment-On-Infants-Withholding-Affection/13213

A genuine case study I studied. This link give a summery of it.

Babys NEED affection to thrive.

Passage from story:
In the United States, 1944, an experiment was conducted on 40 newborn infants to determine whether individuals could thrive alone on basic physiological needs without affection. Twenty newborn infants were housed in a special facility where they had caregivers who would go in to feed them, bathe them and change their diapers, but they would do nothing else. The caregivers had been instructed not to look at or touch the babies more than what was necessary, never communicating with them. All their physical needs were attended to scrupulously and the environment was kept sterile, none of the babies becoming ill.

The experiment was halted after four months, by which time, at least half of the babies had died at that point. At least two more died even after being rescued and brought into a more natural familial environment. There was no physiological cause for the babies' deaths; they were all physically very healthy. Before each baby died, there was a period where they would stop verbalizing and trying to engage with their caregivers, generally stop moving, nor cry or even change expression; death would follow shortly. The babies who had "given up" before being rescued, died in the same manner, even though they had been removed from the experimental conditions.

The conclusion was that nurturing is actually a very vital need in humans. Whilst this was taking place, in a separate facility, the second group of twenty newborn infants were raised with all their basic physiological needs provided and the addition of affection from the caregivers. This time however, the outcome was as expected, no deaths encountered

I will never understand how anyone can ignore a crying baby, goes against every instinct I have

My general rule is that if you wouldn't want it done to your elderly relative in a care home, it shouldn't be done to a baby. They're both groups of vulnerable people.

I wouldn't want my elderly relative left alone to cry for an hour before falling asleep. It's not right for a baby either.

Maybe gently suggest that if she gave baby a bit of a cuddle and maybe another bottle he would self soothe quicker and with less noise for her. An hour seems a little much at 10 weeks.

Please say something to her. I feel so sorry for that baby.
Being tired is part of being a new mum, but you just have to cope.
The baby comes first, and needs cuddles and love, not to be left crying alone at that age. Please find the strength to say something to your friend.

confusedbutinlove that's the biggest load of claptrap I've ever seen on one of these threads. There's a legitimate debate to be had about the science on this stuff, but making up stories about dead babies isn't part of it. Reported.

@ConfusedButInLove if that's a genuine study then I'm a monkeys uncle. Give a proper citation of it please.

Completely agree Abso. You might well have had it tougher. Or you might not. That's my point, I don't know how hard you had it, you don't know how hard she's had it. So less judgment would be good.

I am deliberately not talking about my own shit experience because, as you say, I don't want to get into top trumps.

The point is, if someone's likely to have had and be having a bad time of it, I think less judgment and more sympathy is appropriate.

Even if Confused's study is real, that is not the same as leaving a baby to cry at bedtime, assuming she is giving her baby love and affection the rest of the time.

I was trying to be sympathetic by saying "I know how hard it is".... by that I meant "I remember how difficult and soul destroying the early days of sleep deprivation and a screaming baby can be. I sympathize"

I still judge someone for leaving a newborn premature baby alone to scream for an hour. I just do.

I would still offer them practical or emotional support, advice and kindness. But I do judge it as neglectful. Because it is

Excuse me why the hello would I make up a story as sick as that.
It a real case study that was done. I was taught about it doing my teaching course.
Feel free to take the time and look into it more instead of talking crap about me when you never looked into it.

And fwiw although I would judge internally I very much agree with capricorns post... I wouldn't go in shouting "you cold hearted b" I would offer support

@ConfusedButInLove there is no evidence of this research online. There is a discussion that I found on the Snopes website which refers to the fact that no evidence of it exists. If you bring a study into a discussion it is up to you to reference it properly if you want to be taken at all seriously.

Babies are people. Is there any other circumstance where it’s acceptable to deliberately and knowingly leave an entirely incapacitated person in extreme distress for an hour without attending to their basic needs for warmth, nourishment, hydration and emotional support?

Did I want to bore you all no so I gave you the SUMMERY like I stated.
I leaned it when looking into Bowby. Pretty sure it was Rene Spitz that carried out the actual experiment. Bobby then based his child development theories on that study.

No need to be such nasty bitches

Firstly, I would disapprove of the friend, so let's get that out of the way first.

However, the issue with a lot of these studies is that they either are not properly controlled or they are conducted in extreme circumstances- a lot of the evidence comes from the famous Romanian study which cannot be repeated as it would be deemed unethical, or from observation of babies living in extremely emotionally deprived institutional environments (such as Chinese orphanages in the 1990s). Even then, there is also physical deprivation going on (and incidences of blatant cruelty), so it's hard to untangle the causes.

Therefore, it's not possible to correlate the impact of, say, leaving a baby to cry for an hour, vs. being left in a cot all day with zero responsive care, zero stimulation and zero interaction, which is what the study subjects were typically exposed to.

Extrapolating to "normal" circumstances, where a single parenting style is not great, but all the rest is fine, is usually therefore pretty alarmist.

e.g. all this bollocks about needing a parent facing pushchair or your child won't learn to speak. Extrapolation at it's worst.

There is also evidence that other accepted practices, such as nursery care for babies < 1 year, and living in a blended family environment raises cortisol levels in children, but, you know, people pick and choose which parenting practices they disapprove of, subject to their own circumstances.

Also, when people say that cortisol "damages the brain" what they mean is that it can lead to anxiety/depression because it can lead to a situation where the fight or flight response is activated too readily basically and overpowers the rational brain.