Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

[TheXXFactor]

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

Thing is if there was a trans toilet

Trans facilities won't work either unless they are separated for transwomen and transmen - otherwise you run into the same problems, you run the risk of a burly 45 year old hodcarrier called Derek who identifies as a woman every third Thursday, alone in a room with a timid 15 year old transman who cut her hair short and dresses like an old man but is clearly still a teenage girl.

'Lady penis'???? WTF is that?

I hope that's the sound of a few more people 'peaking'.

What authority do Swim England have over local leisure centres though; it’s a guide isn’t it, for leisure centres to either accept or ignore? This is a genuine question, as I can’t see this ever actually happening in reality.

willy owning self identifying women (?) are treated just as severely as anyone else who misbehaves I don't see a problem

Another aggravating factor around this is that sex crimes by "women" are rising. Anyone remember the papers dancing around the fact that a female sexual predator was on the loose a few months ago? When they eventually printed her picture it was blatantly a middle aged man in a Britney wig and skirt. And how many stories have we had now about "female rapists" and their female rapists demanding they get put into female prisons for their safety?

*female penises

UnimaginativeUsername

What on earth? What kind of local authority allows this, where is it??? They really need to stop that from happening. Nobody can shower naked at the place I go for a swim. There are signs prohibiting it.

Trans facilities won't work either unless they are separated for transwomen and transmen - otherwise you run into the same problems, you run the risk of a burly 45 year old hodcarrier called Derek who identifies as a woman every third Thursday, alone in a room with a timid 15 year old transman who cut her hair short and dresses like an old man but is clearly still a teenage girl.

Oh, and wait. Derek has a little speech ready about how it's a hate crime for women to not fuck him. This. Is. An. Actual. Thing. If anyone knows the name of that gay (relevant) guy on daytime TV who gets angry a lot and storms off sometimes, Owen something? He agreed with this on twitter. Both straight women and lesbians should fuck transwomen. (Then he had a hissy fit when someone asked if he would have sex with a transman with a vagina...)

I'm not Muslim, but it's remarkable how Muslims - in particular Muslim women - are being hung out to dry here.

For years we've been told about how having halal meat in school dinners is important for inclusivity, rules about the colour of hijabs are officially listed on school uniform lists all over the country etc. etc., but suddenly it's COMPLETELY OKAY for Muslim women and girls to be effectively excluded from various activities, in this case, competitive swimming, and what else? There is so clearly a pecking order in this country, with the ownership of a penis trumping every other group's needs.

Women are speaking up about this (not loudly enough) but who is advocating for Muslim women in particular?

I think what we are all realising is that everyone's local facilities are a bit different. In some places women shower and walk around naked, in others there are signs apparently.
However, whatever we as women and girls decide to do in our own facilities, that's our business. No men please.

Where are all these pools with naked people of one gender/sex whatever showing together? I’ve honestly never seen this anywhere.

The two pools nearest us are old buildings and have thus set up. Unless the council magically find money to change the layout it'll likely stay this way as well

I don't really see why its any different for Muslim women? Same issue as any woman, surely?

What authority do Swim England have over local leisure centres though; it’s a guide isn’t it, for leisure centres to either accept or ignore? This is a genuine question, as I can’t see this ever actually happening in reality.

This is exactly what the proposal is for. To make it easier for TIMs to access women only spaces to validate their feelings that they are women. It is being proposed that a man will be able to access places like changing rooms simply by saying "It's ok, I identify as a woman". They won't be required to do it on a permanent, or even full time, basis as 'gender fluid' people feel like men on some days and women on others (largely down to how closely they match the gender stereotype on that day). Neither will they be expected to present as women. This is the proposal. It's what self ID is all about.

So if it becomes law, it won't matter what the leisure centre wishes to do. They must comply with the law.

I suspect that the transwomen community has a higher percentage of violent/sex offenders than the general male population? Does anyone know if there are any stats on that? For a still rather tiny demographic, there seem to be an awful lot of transwoman prisoners and transwomen with criminal records.

And they are being granted free access to women's spaces. I am also concerned about the impressionable teenagers who back them up, that pressure to make them feel validated and accepted as women. There will be collateral damage, and the victims won't feel able to speak out, because their words would be literal violence. Men who hate women, and the hand-maidens who enable them.

If you've got a dick and piss standing up - you're a man. Couldn't give a fuck how you identify. When you've no longer got a dick, we'll talk then

This a thousand fold ...

willy owning self identifying women (?) are treated just as severely as anyone else who misbehaves I don't see a problem

Except that sexual offences committed by 'women with penises' against 'women with vaginas' will just be recorded as crimes by women against women.

As sexual offences by 'women' are recorded as being on the rise, we will no longer be able to say "but women are at risk from sexual offences by men" because the figures will show that men and women are committing sexual offences in similar numbers and we will have even less recourse to address it. It is compounded by the fact that it is/will be a crime to misgender or deadname someone, which means making any reference to their biological sex or their name prior to becoming sex offending woman with a penis.

The problem with that is that the women committing the offences will have penises and the women who are victims will have vaginas.

I don't really see why its any different for Muslim women? Same issue as any woman, surely?

Some Muslim women have extra issues around modesty.They don't show their hair in front of a man they are not related to. For some women, Muslim and otherwise, just the fact that men will be allowed in the facilities may stop them swimming.

BrendasUmbrella

This was posted on another thread... It makes for very worrying reading. And that's before
you even open any of the links contained within!

worrying times

When Target (US store chain) made their changing rooms "gender neutral", there was a massive increase in recorded cases of voyeurism, filming and other sexual offences (all committed by males, though I've not seen stats for how many were trans-identifying vs non-trans opportunists taking advantage).

And that's in a space where you don't normally get completely naked. So I would be extremely worried about voyeurism, placing of cameras, and potentially also sexual assaults increasing in pool changing rooms where women are fully changing and showering. (I would add flashing too, but presumably if it's a "female" penis then waving it at women wouldn't even be considered an offence...). I would certainly be worried about sending my DD to change alone, especially at times when there may be few others around.

On top of the discussions about allowing self-IDed trans women to work in women's refuges, it's madness.

If you agree, please write to your MP, and you can also follow @womansplaceuk on Twitter/FB and support their demands for a reasonable debate.

Some Muslim women have extra issues around modesty.They don't show their hair in front of a man they are not related to. For some women, Muslim and otherwise, just the fact that men will be allowed in the facilities may stop them swimming.

It's not even that they might take the decision to stop swimming or going anywhere with public facilities. It's more likely another set of men - their family members and community leaders will make the decision if the implications of self id become widely known.

I suspect that the transwomen community has a higher percentage of violent/sex offenders than the general male population? Does anyone know if there are any stats on that?

This is certainly true for certain groups of transwomen where cross dressing is linked to sexual gratification. I know there have been stats given about this on the feminist board (this is where we need Datun!)

It's not even that they might take the decision to stop swimming or going anywhere with public facilities. It's more likely another set of men - their family members and community leaders will make the decision if the implications of self id become widely known.

Shit I hadn't thought of that. I really hope not.

How come trans only sessions are recommended but female only ones are now considered trans exclusionary and should be open to males and if anyone disagrees they are big horrible witches terfs?

Toronto University had to backtrack on gender neutral spaces after incidents of voyerism. Although Canada still seems very keen on self ID as a whole.

Right and left wing source for balance.

www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/10/06/u-of-t-bathrooms-voyeurism_n_8253970.html

www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh

For some women, Muslim and otherwise, just the fact that men will be allowed in the facilities may stop them swimming

But surely this is why many centres have sessions especially for muslim women?

Though doubtless a certain kind of trans activist will target those too ...

Though doubtless a certain kind of trans activist will target those too ...

There is at least one who identifies as a queer, muslim woman. I forget the name now. They might be American or Canadian.