Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

[TheXXFactor]

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

@sallyarmy 'Lady penis'???? WTF is that?

Have you not heard? Now women can have penises. Just because they say they are a woman. The fact they are born as men is gloriously and totally irrelevant, once they utter the magic words.

For bonus points, did you also know if a lesbian woman refuses to sleep with a lady penis owner, she is "transphobic" and will probably be told to Die In A Fire, or some other equally pleasant threat.

Would it be worth writing to our local gym to ask that they set aside separate space for pre op trans women as we don't want the possibility of having to change and shower next to someone with fully intact penis?

For a tiny percentage of the population they certainly do cause enough trouble?

And can we stop calling them pre-op? Most TIMs do not have a 'sex change' operation - 80% of them in fact. So let's not entertain the fallacy that they're just waiting to have their penises lopped off. They're not.

How can they be "women" if they still have a penis?! They are still biologically men. When my DD is a teenager I don't want her going into a changing room where there are men with dicks hanging out. How do we know it's not a predator posing to be trans just to get into the changing room?

reallyanotherone - I think that's totally inappropriate and you should have complained. Did you? The age limit at my gym is 8

am not trans-exclusionary. I am happy to have transmen (with XX chromosomes, wombs etc) in women-only sex segregated spaces. Their sex remains female. They cannot identify out of oppression which is caused due to our shared biology.

YY
So they are out-powered as men by more dominant men so of course want to over power women by being a new species of women ie women that have male hormones and genitalia.

Fucking hell its so obvious isn’t it.

@HollyBayTree Have I really missed something here - fair, I've skipped the whole thread, but for at least 15 years my local swimming pool has had mixed showers and non gender changing rooms.

Why yes, yes you have.

Substitute the words "swimming pool" for school or clothes shop or toilets. Add in any young girls, sensitive or religious women you know too if you like.

Still happy for men to be in there in state of undress?

trumpstinyhands a transman is a woman, XX chromosomes, womb etc who wants to become male.

It's transwomen that are males, 85% of whom retain their penises. Please don't think they are necessarily "pre op" if they have a penis etc. Many have no hormonal or surgical treatment at all, because "woman" is just a feeling in their heads apparently.

The new transgender movement is very very different from the "old style" transsexuals, who by and large have tried to live as sincerely and quietly as they could after having surgery to address crippling gender dysphoria.

If the male changing rooms (or even the lobby, if it’s just their sister changing) were too unsafe for a 15 year old, is just use a different pool. Because that one clearly has serious problems.

What 15 year old boy goes in the women's or changes in the lobby??
Sorry, but I had many brothers..ALL of them had unsavoury experiences in men's changing rooms, men's toilets etc etc. It's hardly rare! Anyway,this is derailing so I'll stop there!

If the male changing rooms (or even the lobby, if it’s just their sister changing) were too unsafe for a 15 year old, is just use a different pool. Because that one clearly has serious problems.

The changing rooms are not unsafe. Dh uses it regularly and it’s just men who have been for a swim getting changed.

But for some reason sending a boy into a male changing area is percieved as unsafe. It’s the same with toilets, i have often been washing my hands when an older boy comes in, often with mum waiting outside.

In my case i’d probably just use the mens! Most adult men aren’t sex offenders, and any that want to look at women will be in the womens.

Fuck this.

It's utterly incomprehensible to say that you have the right to privacy from someone with a male body and have the right respected unless that man says in his head he feels female. In which case, with the exact same body, and the exact same subjective experience for you, you have to be 're educated' that this is somehow 'ok'.

So end sex segregation. What's the point? You're no longer entitled to be concerned or upset about your privacy around people with penises so what difference does it make what they call themselves? If I have to accept the possibility of a sex offender enjoying himself in the women's changing room then I want unisex changing rooms where there are fathers and husbands around who won't tolerate this kind of crap happening in front of them. AGPs and sex abusers don't pull this crap in front of other men. (Ooh what a giveaway.)

Except there will be howls and screeches of protest from TRA lobbies if everything was made unisex because it removes the validation buzz and makes them vulnerable to the risks of stripping off in front of other men. Which for some reason they insist is humiliating and dangerous to them but not to biological women.

Oh- and my 9 yo dd opened a shower curtain in the womens changing rooms once to find a fully naked teenage boy taking a shower. His mum wasn’t even in the area- she was poolside watching her other child’s swim session.

This is women saying it is appropriate for boys to use womens spaces. We are weakening our own argument- it can’t be “no penises except my son”.

So the argument for me, comes back to at what age do we exclude boys from womens spaces. 8? 15? Not at all?

This is regularly discussed here, and many posters support their older boys using the womens

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could trust that male dominated spaces would keep our pre pubescent son’s safe huh. You know it’s tjose bloody adult penises again! 🤦🏻‍♀️

No. They should wait in the lobby if their sister has been for a swimming lesson and she’s the only one changing.

Neither of my children have felt at risk in the men’s changing rooms. When DS1 was too young for mens comfortably let him change alone in the men’s, I used a different pool with unisex changing.

DS2 changes in the men’s after swimming club with all the other boys. The main danger there is that they’ll all be loud, silly and annoying. If I didn’t think he’d be safe, I’d use a different pool.

Just to clarify, I am NOT saying boys over the age of 8 or 9 should be going in to women's at all-mine never did.

UnimaginitiveUsername

The other local pool has an entirely communal shower that some people do shower naked in.

Is this in the UK? I know it’s fairly common in Germany.

But at the same time I am not remotely threatened by young boys in women's spaces. It's hardly the same as grown men being there.

Before we moved I went swimming a bit and our local swimming pool had male and female changing rooms. Don't know about the mens, but in the women's there were only two changing cubicles with very flimsy shower curtains that didn't go all the way across.

I would not have wanted to get changed in there with someone who was physically male.

I much prefer the more open unisex changing village with lots of lockable cubicles, but not everywhere has this.

The changing rooms are not unsafe. Dh uses it regularly and it’s just men who have been for a swim getting changed.

But for some reason sending a boy into a male changing area is percieved as unsafe.

Sounds like the men’s in the swimming pools I’ve used, then.

In which case, the swimming pool needs to be clearer and firmer about age limits then. And anyone who genuinely thinks their 15 year old is not safe in the men’s should use a different pool. It’s completely unreasonable to take your 15 year old son into the female changing rooms.

Yes, the entirely communal shower pool is in the UK. Mostly people keep their costumes on. But some women (often older women) shower naked in there. And little girls often do. It’s more common if you go during school hours (so long as school swimming isn’t on), or during adults-only sessions.

YANBU at all

How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules?

Everything we know abou safeguarding goes right out the window in trans matters, its really really odd. I don't understand at all.

I do actually think that women who can't cope with seeing a willy are a bit silly

For many it's not about the willy itself, but the mentality and intent of the man it's attached to - and if in these circumstances that intent is sexual titillation, other issues arise around safety

So long as ... willy owning self identifying women (?) are treated just as severely as anyone else who misbehaves I don't see a problem

And given the ceaseless allowances being made, do you really think that's likely?

Quite. I don't particularly care whether I see a penis in itself. Ultimately, its just a body part.
However, I do care if I see a penis because someone's making a point about getting it out in front of me whether I want to see it or not.

We live in a world where women and girls are frequently subject to sexual harassment by people with penises.

All decent and respectful-of-women penis owners know this and don't want to make women uncomfortable in place where they are naked and vulnerable.

99% of people openly getting their penises out in a women's changing room won't be doing it because they're quietly showering or changing.
They'll be doing it because they want women and girls to see that penis -- either because they want to make some kind of point about being trans or because they're getting off on it. Quite possibly both.

Good god that’s appalling. Total madness. Genuinely fear for my daughter.

I do actually think that women who can't cope with seeing a willy are a bit silly

And a 14 year old girl who has gone swimming by herself or with a friend?

Do you think women are right to be startled when a man pulls out his dick opposite them on a bus and starts wanking while looking at them? Because that's about to be transferred to your swimming pool changing rooms. Just don't say anything. It's better for a teenage girl to be upset than risk upsetting a transwoman - because that's literal violence according to trans-activists...

I am feeling lost in this world. How do we challenge this?
Me too, i despair of the absolute madness that's going on. What a confusing world our children and grandchildren are growing up in.

If they're going to allow this then all swimming pool changing rooms should consist of private cubicles.

I'm sick of women's spaces being invaded, thanks to PC trans bullshit. I don't want to see men in the ladies. I don't want to see a penis in the women's changing room and if I had DDs (which I don't, only DSs), I would be even more horrified, as it's one thing adult women seeing naked men and quite another subjecting girls to it.

I will personally boycott any swimming pool that allows this and I hope others do too. And I will protest - loudly!