Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

[TheXXFactor]

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

The difference between trans-women in women-only changing rooms and everybody in mixed changing rooms, is that if a woman with a penis attacks a woman with a vagina, chances are in a mixed changing area there will be a man with a penis who will be confident enough to confront the woman with the penis about their inappropriate behaviour in a way that the woman with the penis might be inclined to listen to. In my opinion, this would likely stop the woman with the penis behaving inappropriately in the first place. An all women space possibly wouldn't.

'5.4 Transsexual girl – pre-puberty. There should be no gender related advantage as she
will largely have escaped the virilising effects of testosterone on her adolescent
development. The risk of injury to competitors would be minimal and would be
comparable with competitions where all competitors were birth sex female. '

This is from the competitor guidelines.
I was looking because they have sex-based segregation protected by equalities law exemptions in there, which are conveniently not mentioned in this guide.

But then I found this sentence.
Does it mean they think TIM children are automatically all bunged on hormone blockers? It's a sentence that seems to exist as some kind of timeless grammatical enigma. Already escaped a puberty that won't happen in the future?

I know how long I spent on policies for my work but I did at least proof-read them.

No idea how those in power can let 0.05% of the population's wishes fucking trump those of 51%'s basic safety rights, over and over and over and over again.

Men fucking suck. And I am one.

Re: family changing - this works with young children but at 10 and 12 my sons don't really want to change in a communal space with me. Because they deserve dignity too. And I also don't want to push up the price of a gym membership I'm barely able to afford, as it has a hugely beneficial effect on my (and dc's) mental health. At the moment. Because nobody has abused the system to flash at us yet.

Just out of curiosity - why are we the only country who are getting so ridiculous about this? Although I could be wrong, I don't see France/Spain/the US/Russia etc rushing to change the law and get grown man pretending to be women changing with our children? Why is our Government too afraid to stop pandering to the minority??

Aren't most public swimming pools mixed changing in cubicles now anyway? Are non trans men really going to march into ladies only changing and get their d@cks out? The same decency/behaviour rules apply so anyone acting out of order or illegally will be arrested.
I don't get some of the trans panic on Mumsnet sometimes.

username my god that actually made sense to me. How fucked up is that!!

Yes women without penises need to be wary of the women with penises. But hopefully the men with penises might be looking out for the women without penises and step in if the women without penises were too polite to tell the woman with her penis out to put it away.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2227562/Colleen-Francis-Outrage-transgendered-woman-permitted-use-college-womens-locker-room-exposing-himself.html State law in USA

Our local pools are not unisex. There is one that is but you have to go right into the city.

So any old perv can just say he's trans so he can shower with young girls. Must be a paedophiles dream.

Yep. That's pretty much the size of it.

The issue with self id is that anyone can turn up and self id on that day. It could be the first and only time they ever do it and no one will be able to question it. More than that, they'll be breaking the law if they do.

How the actual hell can we stop this runaway train?

I do actually think that women who can't cope with seeing a willy are a bit silly. So long as there are separate cubicles for those who don't want to naked in front of others and any willy owning self identifying women (?) are treated just as severely as anyone else who misbehaves I don't see a problem.

Eventually there'll be enough bodies on the track to force it to a stop but until then, suck it up Buttercup.

greenbean because there are transwomen our there, you know the really angry vocal ones, who are also supporting those amongst them that have some warped and fucked up deviant thinking. I’m not bothered by those who genuinely want to transition but I’m extremely bothered by those who are sexually excited by women’s underwear and having sexual relations with young girls in particular.

My local leisure centre is connected to an all girls school and I doubt very much it will be implementing these guidelines

I wouldn't be too sure ... if they refuse and the activists find out about it, they'll probably organise a "mass trans swim" in order to sue the centre when they're refused access to their preferred area

Yes women without penises need to be wary of the women with penises. But hopefully the men with penises might be looking out for the women without penises and step in if the women without penises were too polite to tell the woman with her penis out to put it away.

Except that the men with penises, who don't wish to cause a women with a vagina harm, won't be able to protect women with vaginas from women with penises because they won't be in the same spaces as women with vaginas where there are also women with penises because those men with penises will identify as men and not feel comfortable, or have any desire to enter, the safe space of women with vaginas. Therefore, women with vaginas will not be safe from women with penises.

And women with penises will be quite safe from other women with penises (despite being women, of course) because most women with penises also identify as lesbians and, as such, are also only interested in women with vaginas. They have no interest in women with penises on account of women with penises being men.

But a)not all gyms have separate cubicles (read thread please)
b)it could be c-ptsd rather than being 'silly' and women with c-ptsd after rape and abuse have a right to access services without their concerns being dismissed
c)a male person showing you their 'willy' is often flashing which is a sex offense that has been proven to be a precursor to other sexual offences. So it's good to be able to monitor it.

We're not daft. We wouldn't balk at an occasional fleeting flash of wang but it's not the sort of thing one should have to negotiate while in a vulnerable naked state. And it's the Colleen Francis types I'm actually worried about who are exhibitionist AGPs.

My local leisure centre is connected to an all girls school and I doubt very much it will be implementing these guidelines

I suspect they are currently 'guidelines' as many establishments aim to get ahead of the law. If it becomes law, they won't have a choice.

It would be like a pub rejecting 'guidelines' not to serve under 18s.

Outy are we silly not wanting to see an erect willy or just a flaccid one? Like would it be ok in your world for a woman with an erect penis to be wandering around a woman’s changing room or is it just flaccid ones that we should be cool with?

I completely agree that adult males with penises should not be allowed to shower in women only spaces?
I get my DC changed either at home or in private cubicles for partly reason.

I am just wondering what peoples views are on a transgender woman (a man) who has had top and bottom surgery to appear as a woman. Should they be allowed to shower with girls and women?

I think the unisex changing villages that newly built pools and leisure centres have are great. We had one open in our town a couple of years ago but they are not everywhere yet.

The next town on still has their pool in a 60s/70s style building that has the M & F facilities with a handful of cubicles but mostly just benches and yes women and girls do get naked in there because there aren't enough curtained off areas to go around.

Nobody seems that self conscious and those that are tend to be willing to queue for a cubicle. If male bodied people were in there I can guarantee the local press would be inundated and women would stop attending.

There are plans for this town to build a new leisure centre of the unisex village variety but as of 2016 this was part of a ten year plan. I expect many towns are in a similar position.

Updated urban planning across the whole of the UK will take decades to complete. How many female penises will women and girls have to put up with in that timeframe?

The bottom line is, there are most likely already trans people using the opposite sex facilities in the places we all use. But we are unaware of them as they are quiet, private people going about their lives.

The concern is not about them.

YY @NaturalWoman

Where are all these pools with naked people of one gender/sex whatever showing together? I’ve honestly never seen this anywhere.
Usually it a row of shower heads and everyone keep their swim suit on.

In fact only ever encountered one naked body in last town we lived in the showers were at far end and fairly secluded not being directly visible from pool or changing cubicles but just off them and I did happen upon a woman showering completely naked.

I remember everyone being very British and looking askance and slightly embarrassed forgoing showers themselves and exiting quickly but saying nothing till my beloved DS noticed and kept on asking why she hadn’t got anything on really loudly – got a filthy look of the woman but she left promptly walking into someone who I remember being just as loud as DS so we got away to the pool.

But that’s only once in all my years swimming I’ve ever encountered it.

NaturalWoman your last sentence was perfect 😂