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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

488 replies

TheXXFactor · 06/02/2018 12:15

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

OP posts:
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kubex · 07/02/2018 11:42

One of my best friends is a trans man. He has yet to complete his transition and doesn't have a penis yet.

He uses male changing rooms, toilets and male only sessions at the gym/pool etc.

If he walked into a female changing room, he would be thrown out. He identifies and looks male, even without the penis.

I think people need more of an understanding of the trans community to take away the fear.

Society doesn't like change or difference - it's happened before, with black people, gay people, people with HIV/AIDS. People are scared of what they don't know or understand.

The fear will pass and we will learn to live together.

PidgeonPodge · 07/02/2018 11:49

Society doesn't like change or difference - it's happened before, with black people, gay people, people with HIV/AIDS. People are scared of what they don't know or understand

The fear will pass and we will learn to live together

No.

That is not what is happening here. These new rules/laws/concessions aren't being sought to make things better for your friend, or anyone like us. We already operated just fine under the old honour system.

I didn't need any woman to give up her safe space, whether that be a changing room or a rape centre, to validate me. Biology doesn't offend me. I don't require any sacrifices of any other groups rights and safety for my well being.

My own body offends me, not any woman's or natural processes thereof.

I don't know why people are believing these TRA's when they say it is about equality and understanding. When they are committing violence against women who disagree, when they are committing sexual crimes, when they no platform intelligent respected women and drip misogyny from their every word and action.

PidgeonPodge · 07/02/2018 11:53

I attempted to comment on the DM article. I was told to be patient and wait for my comment to appear as it had to be moderated first.

For some reason it still hasn't shown up. Why exactly I don't know. Is being Truscum an offence to some now? Wink

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/02/2018 11:58

Society doesn't like change or difference - it's happened before, with black people, gay people, people with HIV/AIDS. People are scared of what they don't know or understand

Women know and understand what dicks can mean.

We don't want them in our spaces.

The old honours system worked just fine.

Your friend is welcome to use the men's rooms and I doubt they will be seen as a threat - for obvious reasons.

gussyfinknottle · 07/02/2018 11:59

Kubex, I assume your friend does just fine in the male changing room. I hope so.
A person who identifies as a woman but still has a penis should entirely get why that penis is unwanted in a women only area. Lose the penis, you can come in. Keep the penis and put it on show in a women only area and don't expect to be welcome.
A penis can do harm to other people. It's as simple as that.
I'll choose when I want to see a penis. No one chooses for me.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 07/02/2018 12:04

kubex if you had an understanding of trans issues yourself, it's unlikely you would refer to transition as something you 'complete' with the implication a phalloplasty would acheive this.
Females rarely opt for this surgery due to the risks and largely unsatisfactory outcomes.
I'm very glad you're there for your friend.
As a lesbian I've been there for lots of folk in the same situation.

I still don't think my son should have to share a changing room with a female with breasts, for eg.

I don't think my daughter or I should share one with someone with a penis.

This is not about issues where a dominant group is oppressing a majority group as in the other examples.
This is about conflicting rights of two oppressed groups. (or groups experiencing societal barriers, if you dislike the word oppression).

Those of us who object are not ignorant. We are concerned based on the evidence before us and the lack of reassurance or accommodations from anyone in authority.

taratill · 07/02/2018 12:11

@PidgeonPodge

thank you.

@kubex

Can you really not see the issues with Self ID? Why should we have to adapt and lose safe spaces?

Hofty · 07/02/2018 12:17

I am officially peak trans 🎉

EmpressOfJurisfiction · 07/02/2018 12:20

He has yet to complete his transition and doesn't have a penis yet.

Have you considered that a lot of trans rights activists - many of them transwomen who have every intention of retaining their penises - would consider this statement transphobic because of the implication that penis is male?

titchy · 07/02/2018 12:24

kubex that's hugely patronising Hmm

We're not afraid of genuine trans women - we're afraid of the ones that pretend they are trans in order to assault.

Do you have a foolproof way of telling the difference?

Elendon · 07/02/2018 12:29

Kubex your friend will never have a penis. It will be an approximation of what looks like a penis (folds of skin from the arm or inner thigh) and will involve a lot of money and scarring.

Mailawaymailawaymailaway · 07/02/2018 12:37

I haven't yet read anything explaining how this sort of change will be policed.

I mean, I can't see any centre staff being comfortable asking a man entering a women's changing room if he truly identifies as a trans-woman or if he is a man looking for an opportunity to perve on and/or rape a woman.

I don't want CCTV in changing areas! That also feels like an invasion.

SIA-licensed female security guard who hands out towels, so feels a bit less like a bouncer and more like an attendant who should be there? I don't really want a bouncer in my changing room, but it's preferable to a camera.

There needs to be a solution that doesn't result in any party being endangered. Financing another member of staff may be more cost effective than finding the space for a third gender-neutral changing area. And actually, given most people using a gender-neutral area would be trans, putting them in that area might make them more vulnerable to hate crimes as they'd be easier to spot, so... yeah, I'm back to the bouncer idea.

Any better solutions?

It's depressing, really. Everything comes down to the fact that we can't just trust 100% of society to do the right thing and play nicely. I shouldn't have to worry about men coming into my safe space just because trans-women are allowed in, but there are always people who seek to exploit the rules. Always.

Alwaysinmyheart · 07/02/2018 12:38

I'm now imagining a future scenario where you or you teenage daughter goes for a bra fitting and it's a man ( self identified as a woman ) doing the fitting. You wouldn't be able to object as it would be illegal...

Horrifying!

SuitedandBooted · 07/02/2018 12:42

The "it's OK because pools have private unisex spaces" argument is simply wrong. It depends entirely on the set-up.

I'm one of several Team Managers at a large syncro swimming club club. We have around 70 girls aged 7 to 18. We use various pools around the area. The ones which belong to schools do NOT have cubicles. All these pools run lessons and sessions for the general public.

If the the TRA's get their way, any bloke can just identify as a woman walk in, and watch women and children change. We could not complain to security or the police, (and it would not be recorded as a complaint). He would have the legal right to be there. In reality, myself and the other parents would remove any such man, and no doubt be accused by Lily/Liam Madigan of an outrageous hate crime.

I have had a look at the link provided by Swim England. It's a Stonewall leaflet, and it barely addresses the current issues thrown up by the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. People will read this, and think, "that's people who have changed and are living entirely and passing as the opposite sex". They won't expect to encounter Dave the hetro-sexual perv, who is a man, lives and usually presents as a man, but has "lady feelings" .

UNDER THE EQUALITY ACT 2010
Sexual orientation refers to a person’s emotional, romantic and/or sexual attraction to another person.
Gender reassignment refers to anyone who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning their sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex. The law protects players, officials and coaches from discrimination and clubs should support anyone taking steps to ‘reassign their sex’ (or transition), whether those steps are ‘social’ (e.g. changing their name and pronoun, the way they look or dress) or ‘medical’ (e.g. hormone treatment, surgery).
The other characteristics protected under the Equality Act 2010 are age, disability, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion and belief, and sex.

It is an out-of date, disingenuous smoke screen. It focuses on ways to integrate gay/lesbian swimmers and post-surgery transexuals, not blokes like Marie Dean or Danielle Muscato getting their jollies by forcing their way into women's spaces.

I will be contacting Swim England, and asking them why they aren't focusing on the self-identifying issues in the proposed changes to the Act, and the dangers they pose. Please encourage all your families and friends to do the same;

www.swimming.org/swimengland/swim-england-contacts/

I'm constantly struck by how many people (women and men) are totally ignorant of the far-reaching implications of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. I think lots of people are turned of politics generally, and for them this issue is just;

weird people = I don't understand = niche social media issue = not my concern

I'm making it my business to tell everyone I know, and most get it, and can see the threats to our safety, free speech and political rights.

On a different tack, I will be using my half-term to email EVERY SINGLE MP, and asking them for their thoughts on the GRA, the attached screen-shot, puberty-blockers, Labour's "TERF" hit-lists, and if they are happy with the road the TRA's are dragging us and our children down. Any MP can be contacted here;

www.theyworkforyou.com/

Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools
PollyBanana · 07/02/2018 12:49

"listen dear, you might call yourself Doris as you identify as female, but your penis still identifes as a male called Dick"

Puzzledandpissedoff · 07/02/2018 12:50

Financing another member of staff may be more cost effective than finding the space for a third gender-neutral changing area

Doesn't that depend on what sex the extra member of staff was? They'd probably get away with advertising for a woman to oversee an exclusively female space, but what happens when a transwoman applies then kicks up a stink if they don't get the job? (And given some activists' behaviour, it could very easily happen Hmm)

SuitedandBooted · 07/02/2018 13:13

Kubex,
Why should I have to share with a male stranger, just to "be nice"? Does your friend have a little halo over his head, proving he is a decent, safe individual? How do I tell him apart from a potential rapist or voyeur?

You know a perfectly OK reasonable man. What about the guy my friend encountered at her local sports centre in Ontario? He was just sat there (in his pants) in the ladies changing room, rubbing his thighs and smirking at her. Needless to say, she left, and reported him to the on-duty staff. Nothing they could do - he "identified as a woman - and Canada have fully embraced this insanity.

Have a look at transcrimeuk.com Predators will use the proposed law changes to invade women's spaces to watch, intimidate or attack them.

"The fear will pass and we will learn to live together" Hmm.

"Naive" doesn't quite cover that statement.......

Rebeccaslicker · 07/02/2018 13:30

Oh yeah, the fear of a pervert or paedo using this law to get access to women at their most vulnerable will totally abate.

What a naive thing to say.

It's not the genuine trans people that are the issue. Even a total tool like India willoughby has obviously made an effort and is highly unlikely to be a threat to women.

It's the people who will abuse it.

51% of the world's population are expected to take that risk to keep a tiny % happy, when the same could be achieved just by having male, female and trans changing rooms (and categories for sports competitions).

It's utter madness.

FluffyWuffy100 · 07/02/2018 13:31

It is worth relinking this @NaturalWoman posted earlier

really scary reading

Mimsy123 · 07/02/2018 13:33

Suitedandbooted

In reality, myself and the other parents would remove any such man

How though, do you mean you’d physically remove him? I wouldn’t risk that, personally, you could end up in court.

Ninoo25 · 07/02/2018 13:36

Yetanotherspartacus the cubicles are not floor to ceiling, but as I mentioned earlier it is open plan, meaning the changing area is visible from the pool and lifeguard areas (hence it being all cubicles and people not walking round half naked). You would have to be lying on the floor peeping through the bottom of a cubicle or stood on something to peek over the top. Anyone doing either of these things would be clearly visible by all the people in the pool and the lifeguards

Mimsy123 · 07/02/2018 13:41

Rebeccaslicker

by having male, female and trans changing rooms (and categories for sports competitions).

I think this is part of the issue though, they probably don’t want trans changing rooms as it identifies them as such and could make them a target.

PathologyGeek · 07/02/2018 13:42

I’m less bothered by the fairly uncommon case of transgendered people, but in Nottingham the 2 newest council pools are 1 large changing room with multiple cubicles. The showers are open, and near the entrance to the pool and for everyone to use. I’m no prude but I feel very exposed and on view to everyone. A couple of men have struck up conversation in the shower and chose to shower next to me when there were multiple free showers on the other side of the door.

Doiber292 · 07/02/2018 13:44

I used to support trans rights massively. Mumsnet has changed my mind.

All I know is I don't want someone with a penis changing near my daughters, me or any females in general. And if that is a hate crime, or illegal to say, then I don't know what is happening to this world.

Rebeccaslicker · 07/02/2018 13:45

Oh I agree Mimsy. And for the more attention seeking minority, it also gets in the way of their "I am a woman, and you must accept that" narrative.

But I'm afraid when I set that alongside the risk to people like my young DD of having perverts and peeping toms abusing the law, it becomes far and away the smaller issue, given the sheer number of people involved.

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