Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

[TheXXFactor]

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

So if a girl tells staff that a grown up with his willy out is making her feel uncomfortable or scared, official policy is now that the person with the penis is in the right, that their wants should be prioritised and that the girl should be 're-educated' to keep quiet about that sort of thing in future?

People wring their hands about previous scandals like Saville and Rotherham and ask how on Earth did people let it happen. This is how it happens and it happens because the rights of women and girls just don't seem to matter.

If it means all areas are converted to mixed changing rooms which are lockable, no-one is being treated any differently. Though no-one can clean themselves as much as they wish and cubicles are invariably cramped.

Much better to have men's area for those with a penis, women's for those without, and mixed areas where anyone can go who would feel uncomfortable changing in front of others.

Any Daily Mail readers clicking through - please be aware 80% of trans identifying males hang on to their penises so the 'pre op' language is sort of meaningless.

Forallsaints don't be ridiculous, why would anyone do anything as sensible as that.

sinceyouask of course trans men exist but they don’t seem to be making the noise & shouting for access to all the safe women spaces. What I meant if all of a sudden the issues started to affect the menfolk then I think there would be room for debate. Because it’s just us women we need to shut up & learn to be more inclusive.

I don’t agree with it but let’s not pretend all men are sexual predators that we need segregating from either please.

That said, the fact trans women keep making so much noise to be allowed access to everything women have access to is super weird. I have big issue with trans women who assume all women look like barbie dolls too, the whole thing is very regressive

BigBaboonBum Your right the ideas some of these trans women have about women are so regressive.

Good. Daily mail have got it, hopefully a few more people will peak trans. I used to be of the "im alright jack" mentality and "a transwomen in the toilet cubicle next to you isn't a threat, she just wants a wee".

Then i peaked and im no longer so misguided and selfish in my outlook.

I realise it may be a minor point, but what's this about using "ze" and "zir" as pronouns? (It was mentioned on Swim England's site)

Granted I'm not as well versed in all this as some, but I'd never heard of that before

Can someone explain why a person with gender dysphoria does not have gender reassignment surgery after living as their preferred gender for an allotted time? Can someone get a Gender Recognition Certificate without having had the surgery? Genuine question.

Puzzled I think that's non binary people - so of neither gender. Although some non binaries identify as trans too which doesn't really compute as logic.

gussy yes surgery is not a requirement for having a GRC. I believe they are judged on an individual basis. Living as the opposite sex is a requirement but it's not clear what that really means other than stereotyped clothing.

I guess people opt not to have surgery because outside the NHS it's expensive or they are not confident in the success rate. There can be very unpleasant complications.

Beyond that many of the current trans identified males don't actually have dysphoria and are quite fond of their penises. Hence why the concept of 'lady dick' and self ID is being pushed hard. These people probably wouldn't get a GRC or have no interest in having one.

I don’t agree with it but let’s not pretend all men are sexual predators that we need segregating from either please.

NAMALT. Yes. Got it.

However 98% of sexual predators currently in prison are male. Almost all sexual offenses against women are carried out by men, who under self ID can now just walk into any swim changing room and crack on.

And as any woman knows, a man does not need to touch you or do anything illegal to make you intimidated or uncomfortable, and as tested in Canada, when a teenaged girl complains a guy is flashing his willy around at her in a changing room, he'll just say he's a woman getting changed and she's committing a hate crime.

Women will be expected to either shut up and take this, or stop trying to go swimming, except it's no longer 1917 and I'm hoping women fail to co operate with this and come up with something a whole lot more assertive. And loud. Bring on the movement for Bloody Difficult Women of a type that no bloke will risk helicoptering his dick around.

But, e.g. childbirth can cause lasting damage to your private parts. Odd that you can flash your dick about in a safe space for women and girls because you are afraid of surgery.

Gussy - lots of reasons, which could include:

• the difficulty of undergoing major surgery (it is very invasive, needs significant follow up, and may not provide the results that are hoped for)
• inability to afford the surgery (in places where the NHS will not fund it / there is no NHS)
• unsuitable for surgery (as with all major surgery, they need to be physically fit enough to cope with the procedure, particularly where skin and other bodily materials are being taken from one area to help construct the new genitalia)
• not wanting to get rid of their penis

And yes, it's possible to get a GRC without having "bottom surgery", as genital surgery is euphemistically known. ("Top surgery" being the construction of or removal of breast tissue) In fact, most MITs - including those with a GRC - retain a fully functioning penis

@BigBaboonBum I don’t agree with it but let’s not pretend all men are sexual predators that we need segregating from either please.

Ok yep. If you can just let everyone know what failsafe method you are proposing so we can identify the safe ones from the dangerous ones, that'd be great. I assume it works at a glance, from a fair distance and poses no risk whatsoever to the person if they get it wrong?

So, it's ok for me to endure a traumatic birth of my child with catastrophic consequences for me and little or no support afterwards. But if my dh/brother/whoever wanted to "identify as a woman " they wouldn't need to go down the path of surgery to get a GRC. Nice.

Swim England do a lot of the swimming clubs, run out of schools.

So while my leisure centre has changing villages, so no difference, for schools (swimming clubs) it is different as they have big communal changing rooms and showers.

Not read whole thread but read the first bit and a lot was about leisure centres so wanted to mention this.

Actually thinking about it there's a lido a few miles away that is all original.

It's communal changing male / female, not really any cubicles that I remember. Also can't remember what the showers were like.

It's all old though which is fine and nice and beautiful but yes communal. I don't think it would be a good idea to tear it down it's probably listed.

gussy - yup, that's right. Plus you are almost certainly being transphobic if you want to talk about such things as childbirth, because not all women can give birth so you are being exclusionary

Seriously. This is how far down the rabbit hole we have already fallen

Ok so my 5 and 8 year old dds have swimming lessons at the local council pool. The lessons are very good quality and they are well integrated with the other kids.

One bloke in the changing room is all it will take for me to withdraw them completely. And I mean adult.

@Myunicornfliessideways - yes, high number of sexual predators in jail are male. It’s also a big issue that sexual assault done by women (especially assault done to males) isn’t taken seriously, one of the things that stems from this is messed up stats.
Just because men are MUCH more likely get reported, caught and charged doesn’t mean it’s 98% of men doing the harassing.

ANYWAY, @ShotsFired as I said I don’t agree with the whole thing, but talking about men like this is very unhealthy. No wonder they want to grow tits and slap on makeup and not be comfortable being a man.

It’s like taking the more black people in jail stats and banning black people from places so we’re safer. It’s toxic and regressive and it doesn’t work and the root of the problem should be focused on - good luck figuring it out though, but this certainly isn’t working.

@Myunicornfliessideways - yes, high number of sexual predators in jail are male. It’s also a big issue that sexual assault done by women (especially assault done to males) isn’t taken seriously, one of the things that stems from this is messed up stats.
Just because men are MUCH more likely get reported, caught and charged doesn’t mean it’s 98% of men doing the harassing.

There are around 15,000 male sex offenders currently in UK prisons. There are 120 female sex offenders in prison in the whole of the UK. Do you really think there are thousands of women getting away with violent sex crimes that the authorities aren't noticing?

We have someone on the thread disputing that men are more likely to commit sex offences than women?

WTF???

It starts young and it goes til you hit the age of invisibility. Most women have multiple incidents of male predatory / illegal / behaivour of a sexual nature.

Why the fuck would anyone want to pretend that this is not true? That women are going around flashing their fannies at boys on the bus, shouting "suck my tits" at them out of cars, wanking at them on the tube, all of it? Someone with some kind of agenda that is not friendly to women and girls that is for sure.

if it's as common for men then why are they all so surprised when women tell them about even one or two of the things that have happened? How come they don't say "yeah it is bad isn't it, I had a man rubbing his erection against me on the bus when I was a lad too, it's horrible isn't it". Hmmmm I wonder.

Men and boys are more at risk of non sexual violence, but oh no who cares about that, when there's an opportunity to pretend that women and girls behave in the same predatory illegal terrifying manner as the too-large minority of fucking creepy men.

OvaHere actually yeah, definitely. Men don’t report it like women do