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Original poster

DD doesn't want to go to church any more

603 replies

jessicabenomi · 04/02/2018 23:18

First-time poster here...

My three dd's have been coming to church with me every Sunday their entire lives (dh doesn't come).

It's increasingly being a struggle to get my eldest dd (aged 14) to come. She always says she has too much homework or she wants to meet her friends. Today after we got back she said that the youth Sunday school was so awful that she never wants to go again and she doesn't believe in God.

She's had one of these anti-church "episodes" (I know that's the wrong word I just can't think of another) every few years, but has always calmed down and come back to church before.

Am I being unreasonable to make her come with me? I don't want to force her if she truly doesn't believe, but my faith is so important to me and my church family have been so supportive at difficult times of my life. I just want her to have that support too.

OP posts:
BlackEyedKid · 05/02/2018 15:02

Oh fuck off with the stupid remarks about “societal norms” re: slavery!

Stop making pathetic excuses.

Either it’s right or wrong to keep slaves. I’ll give you a clue; it’s wrong.

But apparently god was so preoccupied with what consenting adults did together when they were naked, and telling them what to eat that he just didn’t have time to slip in something about it being wrong.

Honestly. Christian apologists make me fume.

Abra1de · 05/02/2018 15:05

I am actually an agnostic...

nextDayDelivery · 05/02/2018 15:11

So you go about your life assuming that there isn't a god and that nothing can be known about them and their existence (or not)?

That's the same as me except I think that if he is real he's a cunt of the highest order and the logical way to live is as though he didn't.

Have I misunderstood?

TabbyMack · 05/02/2018 15:16

I am actually an agnostic

This makes me laugh.

Is there a God that you believe exists, whether you worship it or not? No? Then, by defintion, you are an atheist.

But don't panic...you're also an agnostic, as all atheists are.

TabbyMack · 05/02/2018 15:21

Actually there's a lot more evidence for Jesus' existence than that of Julius Caesar

ShockShockShockShockShockShock

That is 100% wrong.

We have contemporary busts of Caesar, writings BY HIm and about him, coins with his face on, an entire era in history defined by him, political systems inspired by him, a calendar named for him.....

For Jesus? Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Nothing.

Read actual history books before you pronounce on subjects you clearly know nothing about.

MadMags · 05/02/2018 15:32

I don’t believe half of these stories.

I grew up in catholic Ireland and haven’t heard anything like the fanciful tales on here!

Lizzie48 · 05/02/2018 15:42

@TabbyMack Do you actually realise just how early the textual evidence is dated from for the New Testament documents? As I said before, Paul's letters started from 15 years after Jesus supposedly lived. It doesn't make sense if he didn't exist. Why didn't Paul set himself up as the one?

Why were so many people happy to be martyred for a fictional character? Again that doesn't make sense, does it? And why so much persecution?

There are also mentions of Jesus in secular literature, some of it hostile like Tacitus. And there was Josephus.

There's precious little historical documentation for other historical characters.

So actually you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about.

nextDayDelivery · 05/02/2018 15:43

Actually there's a lot more evidence for Jesus' existence than that of Julius Caesar

Fuck!

How did I miss this beauty?

UnimaginativeUsername · 05/02/2018 15:44

Are you referring to people’s stories of being forced to go to church as a teenager and resenting your parents for it? Because I can’t see why they’d be unlikely. At least 50% of my catholic friends (including DS1’s dad) have a similar story to tell. His parents used to insist that he went to vigil mass if he was going out on a Saturday night and wouldn’t be getting up on Sunday morning. And they’d check with the priest to make sure he’d gone. He was 18. I don’t think he’s been to mass once since he left home.

TatianaLarina · 05/02/2018 15:49

I’m an atheist and there is some contemporary evidence for Jesus’ existence.

Flavius Josephus, Jewish historian at the time, makes a couple of references to Jesus, ‘the one called Christ’.

Roman politician, Tacitus, stated that Jesus was executed while while Tiberius was emperor and Pontius Pilate was prefect of Judaea. Pliny observed that, when he was head of northern regions of what is now Turkey, Christians worshiped Jesus. Both disliked Christians, they were not complimentary about them, just observing the phenomenon.

derxa · 05/02/2018 15:52

I grew up in catholic Ireland and haven’t heard anything like the fanciful tales on here! Yes Mags It's like one long misery memoir

Abra1de · 05/02/2018 15:55

I do not know whether I believe or not, hence I am not an atheist.

It doesn’t seem a pressing issue to know either way, to be honest. And I can’t think of any way we’d could either definitely prove God exists or not.

It seems entirely possible to live a good life and treat other people well without knowingly for sure either way, but without being unkind to those who are shoutingly sure they know.

Lizzie48 · 05/02/2018 16:08

Thank you, @TatianaLarina obviously this is only about whether there was a historical Jesus. As to who Christians believe his identity was, that is obviously a separate issue altogether, I'm aware of that.

nextDayDelivery · 05/02/2018 16:09

"It seems entirely possible to live a good life and treat other people well without knowingly for sure either way"

That's where you've gone wrong. I know that sounds arrogant but I don't know how else to phrase it.

If you live by the teachings of the bible then you can't treat all other people well. At the very least you believe in various levels of hell for different sinners. You believe in sinners. You believe that your Sikh friend down the road has an eternity of damnation. You believe in stonings and whatever other sick punishments for transgressions.

If you claim to be religious but lead a good life and treat others fairly and equally then you're ignoring the scrpture and may as well be atheist.

BlackEyedKid · 05/02/2018 16:21

Not to mention that just leading a good life isn’t enough to get you into heaven. You have to believe in god and accept him as your saviour and all that nonsense.

Lizzie48 · 05/02/2018 16:29

Thank you for your kind words, @KateAdiesEarrings it's been a tough debate.

@nextDayDelivery no you don't have to believe the barbaric punishments need to be applied. As I've said, it is hard to understand the Old Testament law. I agree, there's no excuse for slavery. The Old Testament laws were regulating a practice that already happened, God didn't institute slavery, people did. According to the Old Testament, God freed the Israelite slaves and told them they needed to treat their slaves differently. In fact, slaves were to be offered their freedom after 7 years.

As for heaven and hell, you don't have to believe hell is eternal damnation. The language used for hell is very much based on the inter testamental Jewish writings, not actual Scripture. The word for hell is the name of the Valley of Gehenna, where rubbish was burned, which had previously been a site where child sacrifice had been practised. So a lot of Christian theologians dispute that the descriptions of hell should be interpreted literally, and I agree with that.

MadMags · 05/02/2018 16:39

No, I’m not talking about people being “forced” to go to mass/church/whatever.

Abra1de · 05/02/2018 16:41

BlackEyedKid

Not to mention that just leading a good life isn’t enough to get you into heaven. You have to believe in god and accept him as your saviour and all that nonsense

This wouldn’t bother me as I don’t believe in heaven.

Abra1de · 05/02/2018 16:44

And as I don’t claim to be living my good life by the teachings of the bible I am mystified by your telling me I am going wrong, Nextday. As I said, I am an agnostic. My good life is to do with trying to treat people well and hopefully leave the planet no worse off as a result of my having existed. Why do you think I am worrying about biblical teachings?

Loonoon · 05/02/2018 16:44

Nextdaydelivery. I have tried to stay out of this but I really think you re wrong. If you read the Gospels Jesus makes it very clear that it is not someone's race or creed that makes them a good person but how they behave to others. In the parable of the Good Samaritan for example he makes it clear that the Samaritan (a people despised by the `Jews at that time) was a much better person than the supposedly more holy priest and Levite. He spoke against stoning and judging others saying 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. He preached that we should love our neighbour as much as we love ourselves, always forgive other people and take care of the weak, needy, poor and prisoners.

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 05/02/2018 16:44

Dd goes to the faith school, reasonably heavy too... Lots of mass, she came to me the other day saying she just can't believe in god, why do some regions have ten or more gods, but others one... What about the roman gods.. Didn't they truly believe in venus etc... What about evolution.

I couldn't disrespect my own dd.
I finally told her I didn't believe either. But I like some of her the bibles teaching.

I am a great believer in letting them come to their own conclusions about things, so I don't rant faith or politics down their necks.

Op I don't have think you can see the wood for the trees here. Doesn't your relationship with your daughter matter to you! It really does sound like you think she should be brain washed. I feel really sorry for your dd, especially the fact you have not been taken on one word of advices and you seem so lost yourself you cannot leave her be. Sad poor poor kid

computationalAspects · 05/02/2018 16:48

@Lizzie48

"it is hard to understand the Old Testament law"

Is it? I've found most of it quite easy. Fucking awful, but easily understood. That's your issue though. You need to find a way to understand the Old Testament (God's actions) that gives your beliefs a good basis.

God is clearly evil in much of the bible. How can you think that follwing his teachings makes you a better person or gives you a better life?

Strongmummy · 05/02/2018 16:48

Yes of course you are being unreasonable. It’s important to you, but not her. She’s not a child anymore and is formulating her own opinions. You need to respect the fact that you may not have the same views on things in life, accept you differences and love her for her independence!!

LemonysSnicket · 05/02/2018 16:55

The whole point of a faith is ... faith. If she doesn’t have it then going to church won’t make her a Christian. Maybe she’ll find god , but she has to do so herself for it to ‘count’.

Gatehouse77 · 05/02/2018 17:10

I haven't read the whole thread but do have a couple of observations/questions.

  1. Those posters who are deriding the OP for her beliefs should be ashamed of themselves. Using phrases such as sky fairies is unbelievably rude.
  2. OP I wouldn't force your daughter to attend but open up a dialogue with her about what her faith means to her; keep the door open. As others have said, she may come back in her own time.
  3. People often talk about Christian values - but surely they are Jewish values? Jesus was put on earth to get the people back on track but those were with the values instilled by the commandments, etc. which the Jewish faith also believe in. (