DD doesn't want to go to church any more

[jessicabenomi]

First-time poster here...

My three dd's have been coming to church with me every Sunday their entire lives (dh doesn't come).

It's increasingly being a struggle to get my eldest dd (aged 14) to come. She always says she has too much homework or she wants to meet her friends. Today after we got back she said that the youth Sunday school was so awful that she never wants to go again and she doesn't believe in God.

She's had one of these anti-church "episodes" (I know that's the wrong word I just can't think of another) every few years, but has always calmed down and come back to church before.

Am I being unreasonable to make her come with me? I don't want to force her if she truly doesn't believe, but my faith is so important to me and my church family have been so supportive at difficult times of my life. I just want her to have that support too.

Sorry OP but you're really not showing yourself in a great light.

I agree with a PP. This issue isn't about religion. It's about parenting. There are things that, yes, we need to make children and adolescents do. Like brush their teeth, wash, try and make healthy and safe decisions, etc. But it's really important that once they're at an age to start coming to their own conclusions about their fundamental beliefs, you listen and respect that they are not your clones and that you're actually going to do them a damage by forcing them to go through the motions for your own benefit.

By all means, present her with the option to come and try the adult service if she's open to it. But if she wants to stay home still, listen. Even your vicar can't give you a magic formula to make her believe. So chose instead to show her respect and let her know that she's listened to.

And I'm sorry for OP's poor kid who has been trying to reject the crap her mother peddles for several years, yet has been repeatedly pushed into compliance.

@JacquesHammer it isnt patronising.

Considering the wicked abuse against people in other parts of the world and here throughout history in the name of religion Id pull anyone up for saying they defend anyone's rights to practice as they see fit to the hilt.

@Ellie56

"I gave up halfway through the rant further upthread."

Try running your finger under the words as you go.

@Abra1de

Why did I lose you?

I think that some people who are good (by my judgement) would describe themselves as christian or whatever but then they are not following the guidance of their scripture.

You cannot be a good person and [Abrahamic faith]. I think they're mutually exclusive. If you are open and accepting and good then you have failed your religious teachings.

@Lizzie48

"It is not rue that rape victims should marry their rapists, the Old Testament law, as I recall, does make provision for this, but that was a very different society where a rape victim who was unmarried would face a lifetime of shame and find it impossible to find a husband."

The Old Testament is very clear. I live in Asia half the year. I don't think the advice "marry them then" is ever acceptable. A lifetime of shame seems better than marrying a man who is likely to rape you over and over.

I'm not talking about good and bad and individuals like your father. I mean trends and the effect on whole societies. The bible is full of racism, homophobia and misogyny.

Ignoring 'christians' how about god? I appreciate your reply but you didn't address

Despite the atrocities that your god committed, why do you love and worship him?

@KateAidesEarrings

"I don't know any atheists in RL who are quite so 'angry' about religion."

What's you point? You say anger, I say passionate.

We should all be angry about religion. We should all be passionately against religion. We should all be passionate for a cause and I think that religion is the root of most evil in the world. Catholics vs Protestants either in the troubles in N. Ireland or back through Mary I etc. Sunni vs Shia. Israel vs Palestine. RC vs Jews in Italy and Spain. Buddhists vs Muslims. Hindus vs Sikh in India.

I often roll my eyes at mentions of 'the patriarchy' but nothing epitomises the want of rich men to keep the poor and female in their place like religion.

I agree it's not acceptable. But that's where the historical and cultural context has to be taken into account. Also, a lot of OT laws are not applicable under the New Covenant.

The OT writers were people of their own time, so we should never apply the OT laws to our time without taking into account what the NT has to say. Jesus' treatment of women is so different.

Okay. The 'ignore it because of historical context' argument seems to fall flat considering your omnipotent god.

I'll ask again.

Despite the atrocities that your god committed, why do you love and worship him?

He is the same god. He hasn't changed. He is the one constant in the different books.

You cannot be a good person and [Abrahamic faith]. I think they're mutually exclusive. If you are open and accepting and good then you have failed your religious teachings.

You really have not.

If, for example, a Christian works in a night shelter looking after old, young, gay, straight, some religion, no religion, atheist
, without proselytizing because of their belief in Jesus they are explicitly following the Christian requirement of charity. There is no contradiction.

There may be many other reasons people of all or no faith work in the shelter, of course.

how is it controlling to hope that at some point he will rediscover the values we taught him.

It's not, Steppemum, but that's not what you said originally. You didn't say you hoped he would; you said you were sure he would.

I'm an atheist. I no longer feel anger about religions as I once did but strongly believe the world would be better without them.

How many more wars do there have to be in the name of religion? How many more people murdered by terrorists in the name of religion, preferably with the terrorist blowing himself up as he has been told 40 virgins are awaiting him in heaven? How many more children abused by priests? How many more people in third world countries dying of AIDS and in childbirth because a religion stops them using condoms and birth control?

I remember as a child having a friend who was one of ten children. It was obvious they lived in poverty, small house, multiple children sleeping to a room, not much food. The Catholic Priest visited regularly - not as you would think to help but to extract every penny he could from them. He didn't care if it meant next to no food for the next day or two - as long as the already stinking rich church got their cut. I don't know if priests still take money from their poor followers but I do know it made me very angry at the time and put me off religion for life.

OP, your DD is old enough to make up her own mind.

Am I being unreasonable to make her come with me?

Absolutely 200% yes

YABU. My mother forced us to attend church until we left home for uni. Same as your DH my father didn’t attend. It was a big source of contention between us and I deeply resented it. Once I was on my own I avoided church like the plague for 10 years, then slowly tiptoed back in. My brother isn’t a churchgoer at all or even much of a believer.

With my children by 13/14 for sure if they say they won’t come anymore I won’t force it.

Your DD is old enough to make this decision. If I were you I’d try to get her and your DH to spend that time together so it’s still a family morning type thing.

Well, there's no actual historical doubt that Jesus existed

erm, yes there is.

In Judaism, we have the bar/bat mitzvah at age 13 (sometimes at 12 for girls). What that actually is supposed to mean is that the kid is now responsible for their own religious life. I think this is a real developmental insight by the rabbis of old who instituted this. It's counterproductive to push kids older than this to participate in religion. You're giving them negative experiences associated with your religion by doing so. People generally don't keep doing things if most of their experiences with those things are negative.

DH was made to go to church throughout his teenage years and feels a lot of contempt for organised religion now.

If faith is important to you, then you shouldn't try to force it on anyone.

It is wrong to force religion on someone.

As a Christian myself, yes YABU to make her go.

As a Christian I think yabu. It’s your faith not hers.

@BartholinsSister Actually there's a lot more evidence for Jesus' existence than that of Julius Caesar. Of course we can argue the point as to how much of the biblical account is true. But I doubt so many Christians would have got away with their accounts so soon after the events they described. Paul's first letters were written only 15 years later. If he was fictional why all the persecution??

@nextDayDelivery There are all sorts of ways to interpret the Old Testament. A lot of it is very hard to understand. But in a lot of ways the Jewish laws were far more humane, for example re slavery, than in the society around them. The societal norms then were so very different.

To go back to the rape victim, awful things happened to women. Honour killing still happens now; there have been girls who have been raped who are then stoned to death. Marrying her rapist is probably not the horrible thing it seems to us.

I'm leaving this discussion, it's actually quite triggering for me now. These are tough questions that I'm having to find answers to myself. It's been a good discussion, though.

When I asked why god wasn’t helping with the Ethiopian famine they said it was because they were poor,black and African Honestly?

next your posts consistently display your ignorance of religion and theology, and now you've added politics and economics into the mix without even appreciating their significance in the conflicts you attribute to religion. You're also eliding faith with organised religion and established churches. It is 'testament' to Lizzie's good faith and patience that she is trying to engage with you.

@geekymommy

"What that actually is supposed to mean is that the kid is now responsible for their own religious life"

But after 13 years of indocrinisation and pressure from family and peers and your social group it's unlikely to be a decision made purely on the benefits or beliefs of judaism, is it?

@Abra1de

But if I help in a homeless shelter without being religious, I can help a homosexual without thinking they can't get married and have the same status as a heterosexual person or that they're going to hell or that they're "an abomination" in the eyes of my god.

But after 13 years of indocrinisation and pressure from family and peers and your social group it's unlikely to be a decision made purely on the benefits or beliefs of judaism, is it?

Not to mention having had part of their genitals cut off, if a boy.

But if I help in a homeless shelter without being religious, I can help a homosexual without thinking they can't get married and have the same status as a heterosexual person or that they're going to hell or that they're "an abomination" in the eyes of my god.

Well done, you’re behaving just like most Christians do in such circumstances when they’re helping in shelters/camps/hospitals. Not all Christians are Southern Baptists.

"Not to mention having had part of their genitals cut off, if a boy."

By the Rabi's teeth, if done properly!

metzitzah b'peh or 'get that baby's penis out of your fucking mouth' as the rest of us may know it.

@Abra1de

So, you're a good person who ignores the teachings of your bible. Good for you but doesn't that prove my point?

The bible is clear about homosexuals. If you treat them equally then you're a good person and a bad christian.