Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think it's time to bin the word feminism

464 replies

whatnow123 · 31/01/2018 15:28

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

OP posts:
CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 19:06

Goady fucker.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 19:12

Ah. Can I just check- do you actually know anything about FGM? For example-do you know what infibulation is?

Yes. It's the most extreme form of FGM. But the least extreme is removing the tip of the clitoris. Which is not dissimilar to clitoral piercing.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 19:15

Goady fucker.

I'm a goady fucker? For pointing out something which is a legitimate academic debate. I must tell my lecturer next time I see her that her PhD was not, in fact on topics in history and cultural anthropology, but on 'goady fuckeriness'. I'm sure she'll be delighted to know.

It's on fucking undergraduate degree syllabuses. It's not some big secret. Go and google it.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 19:16

I've got a seven year old dd. I challenge you to find a salon where they will pierce her clitoris.

You are talking shot.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 19:20

Here's a fairly accessible article about about it:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/391841/

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 19:21

Sorry. You know someone who did a PhD in how FGM is like having your clitoris pierced?

Where was that? The University of Crap Analogy?

DeleteOrDecay · 01/02/2018 19:22

You know women in this country pierce their clitoris' completely legally. And that's not a million miles from FGM anyway.

The main difference being that women (not children) who have this done have autonomy and are making a choice.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 19:24

Well if I'd said seven year olds had their clitoris' pierced you might have had a point. But I did say 'women'.

And even those who advocate FGM being allowed to take place legally and in sanitary conditions only argue for it to be allowed for adult women, not children. Part of the argument is that it would reduce non-consensual procedures on children if it was done in that way.

Look, you don't seem to be able to understand this, I am not arguing for this, I am presenting an argument that has been made by other people. Other people much cleverer than me. If that's far too abstract for you too understand, that's not my problem.

BertrandRussell · 01/02/2018 19:24

It used to be a classic MRA argument- showing that infant male circumcision was as serious if not more serious than FGM, because most FGM was simply a ritualized prick to the clitoris drawing a single drop of blood.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 19:24

Ah no - it's the university of Wilful Cultural Relativism to Minimise Child Abuse.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 19:27

If the person who wrote that article is 'much cleverer' than you then I'm surprised you can make whatever device you're posting on work tbh.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 19:28

Sorry. You know someone who did a PhD in how FGM is like having your clitoris pierced?

No, someone whose PhD (I don't want to be too specific) was on colonial history in East Africa and particularly women's role within it. FGM is a major part of that because it was a huge flashpoint between local people and colonial authorities when they tried to stamp it out and women were very involved in the resistance to banning it.

That brings in all sorts of arguments about cultural relativism and how far and about how much westerners have a right to implode their cultural mores and expectations on other cultures, particularly when they are resistant to the changes it brings.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 19:31

If the person who wrote that article is 'much cleverer' than you then I'm surprised you can make whatever device you're posting on work tbh

That's a very simplified version.

As I've said (repeatedly), if you don't believe me go and have a Google of cultural relativism and FGM. Google African resistance to the banning of FGM in the 19th century.

StatelessPrincess · 01/02/2018 19:35

I'm not trying to be goady but has anyone heard of Fuambai Sia Ahmadu? PhD in social anthropology and has worked for UNICEF. She supports FGM and chose to have it done herself as an adult.
I would still like to know what a feminist solution to eradicating FGM would be?

AssassinatedBeauty · 01/02/2018 19:42

Does she support it for girls or just for adult women who choose it for themselves?

RatRolyPoly · 01/02/2018 19:48

And for anyone who was confused as to why a woman would be reluctant to call herself a "feminist"....

StatelessPrincess · 01/02/2018 19:49

I'm not 100% sure Assassinated but I think I read somewhere that she does, her 8 year old sister had it done at the same time as her I believe, I'm on her blog right now but my internet is really slow. She says she's passionate about third wave feminism too Confused

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 19:50

stateless, one of the arguments I have heard is advocacy of projects to eradicate it which are educationally based a driven entirely by local women. Projects which take into account local culture and practice and respect them whilst also educating about the risks and dispelling myths which encourage people to have it.

Because suppression of FGM has strong associations with imperialist oppression I believe a lot of projects which are driven by western funded NGOs and western feminist organisations campaigns against it are often unsuccessful because they are viewed as part of the same imperialist agenda and as an imposition of western values.

I have read a few articles this evening while posting this and many of them said that the people campaigning against it needed to know the proper cultural context of it to stop it - and that the western way of responding to it (see above) of accusing people of being child abusing savages is seen as deeply insulting imperialism and gets the people trying to stop it absolutely nowhere but instead entrenches the practice.

thebewilderness · 01/02/2018 19:52

The claim that piercing a body part is not significantly different from removing a portion of that body part is absurd.
I am always fascinated when people talk about feminism as though it has to be justified to every individual. Do you debate the usefulness of the Labour Party since not all who work agree with it? Do you hate everyone who you disagree with and think they should be silenced? Or is that just for uppity women? Feminism is the only political movement to my knowledge that is expected to be all things to all people or it is declared useless.

tabbywabby · 01/02/2018 19:53

Eltonjohnssyrup Very, very, very few women have piercings through the clitoris. Women who have 'clitoral piercings' are 99% having a clitoral hood piercing which is a million miles from having a piercing that goes through the clitoris - they go through skin, not clitoral tissue. So no, removing the tip of the clitoris is nothing like the overwhelming majority of 'clitoral piercings'

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 20:06

But they can have a clitoral piercing legally. Which is removing part of the clitoris by making a hole in it. It isn't a million miles away.

I only mentioned it because it kind of highlights the point that a lot of westerners see that as 'okay because a woman can do what she wants with her body'. But if it's an African woman who wants partial clitoral removal as part of FGM then the western attitude becomes 'Oooh no, it's men making her do it', it's savage and barbaric.

That sort of attitude, going right back to the initial attempts by the British in the 19th century, has only ever entrenched the practice and created more resistance towards stamping it out.

It's seen as patronising and insulting their cultural beliefs and practices and their bodily autonomy. And yes, some people (mainly feminists of colour who agree it is cultural relativism to object) have pointed towards western practices like clitoral piercings and labiaplasty to call out what they see as Western hypocrisy which they think allows similar things in different contexts just because they fit in with their accepted cultural norms.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 20:11

Do you hate everyone who you disagree with and think they should be silenced? Or is that just for uppity women?

No, but then I'm not the woman on this thread doing the silencing am I? Apparently I'm completely evil just because I've pointed out that the issues behind FGM are very complex and just pointing at the millions of Africans who do it and shouting 'barbarians, child abusers' is a very ineffective way of stopping women being harmed by it.

StatelessPrincess · 01/02/2018 20:29

It's seen as patronising and insulting their cultural beliefs and practices and their bodily autonomy. And yes, some people (mainly feminists of colour who agree it is cultural relativism to object) have pointed towards western practices like clitoral piercings and labiaplasty to call out what they see as Western hypocrisy which they think allows similar things in different contexts just because they fit in with their accepted cultural norms. I'm really uncomfortable with FGM but I actually think they might have a point. Thanks for answering my question Elton

GoldenBlue · 01/02/2018 20:44

I think Elton articulated an interesting argument. I certainly don't like being told what I should believe or do with my own body.

Consenting adults should be able to make their own informed decisions about what jobs they do, what they do with their bodies and how they vote etc.

I abhor the idea of FGM but if I truly believe the above then I have to concede that people have the right to choose to under go this

BertrandRussell · 01/02/2018 20:47

"I abhor the idea of FGM but if I truly believe the above then I have to concede that people have the right to choose to under go this"
Do they have the right to do it to children?