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to think it's time to bin the word feminism

464 replies

whatnow123 · 31/01/2018 15:28

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 01/02/2018 20:54

A clitoral piercing goes behind the clitoris, not through it!

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 21:04

Do they have the right to do it to children?

No. I don't think even people who buy into the cultural relativism argument think they do. Or not many of them. Part of their argument is that if it is legal for women to have the less extreme type done in hospital as adults people won't do it to children because they will hold off to have it done legally. I'm not completely convinced that would work, especially not amongst poorer people because of the cost involved.

A clitoral piercing goes behind the clitoris, not through it!

One type of them does. One type goes straight through.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 21:13

Do they have the right to do it to children?

Yes. That's the point. rather than that huge straw man you're waging around

GoldenBlue · 01/02/2018 21:22

No adults can make informed decisions, children are not able to consent, hence such crimes as statutory rape

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 21:26

halfdesertedstreets, look, you appear to be finding this a little hard to understand.

There is a huge debate around FGM which doesn't involve spittle flecked rabid people screaming at black people.

We've been doing that for nearly 200 years and it hasn't worked. One of the strands of that argument (which I think is INTERESTING, not that I said I backed) is one backed by many feminists of colour who believe that legalising the more extreme forms in sanitary environments for adults will stop the most extreme forms of it happening and also reduce the chances of infection and various forms of complications.

Another strand thinks that stopping it has to come from within their communities and has to be sensitive and respectful to their cultures and traditions.

An awful lot of African feminists have pointed out that the way western feminists treat FGM is viewed hostilely as cultural imperialism and entrenches the practice and hinders attempts to stop it.

I've explained it a couple of times. I've posted links and pointed out how you can google the arguments yourself. I'm just pointing out that these arguments exist.

You seem incapable of understanding that and are just getting nasty instead. I'm not going to bother engaging with you. Because clearly whatever I right in your head is going to translate as 'hold seven year olds down and chop them up with a rusty razor.' It's not worth it.

BertrandRussell · 01/02/2018 22:08

"Do they have the right to do it to children?

Yes. That's the point. rather than that huge straw man you're waging around"

Sorry? Not sure why you're responding to me like that.....

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 22:46

I think she was responding to me Bertrand.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 22:47

And that post up there should have said some feminists of colour want to legalise the less extreme forms, not the more extreme.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 01/02/2018 22:49

No I don’t

Whenever you have a movement there will be different ideas unfortunately the most extreme are what many focus on

And many simply don’t want girls and women to be considered equal so no matter what the movement is called it will be knocked and trashed

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 22:53

you appear to be finding this a little hard to understand.

No. I'm really not. I just think cultural relativism is bollocks. And actually racist bollocks too.

And IME often/usually conveniently used to excuse things which adversely impact women and girls.

And yes Bertrand I was agreeing with you. Smile

StatelessPrincess · 01/02/2018 23:37

That's interesting Certain I've always thought that it's racist to believe that cultural relativism is bollocks. Could you explain your thinking?

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 23:53

Yes, very interesting. Not sure how cultural relativism is supposed to be racist. I would be very interested to hear how you came to that conclusion.

And many simply don’t want girls and women to be considered equal so no matter what the movement is called it will be knocked and trashed

Bertrand, I think the feminists of colour who support FGM would (playing devils advocate) say that western feminists only want equality in that they want them to conform to a western ideal of what a woman is. That western women only want them to have things like bodily autonomy within the rules they've set with western cultural norms. If they go outside that and do something western feminists don't like (not just FGM, but scarification or extending necks too) western feminist suddenly stop thinking they should have bodily autonomy and should do what they're told.

Forkhandles22 · 02/02/2018 01:37

Because they’re not the same thing. By definition, feminist implies exclusivity to women’s rights. If you want complete equality for both sexes you’re an equalist.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 02/02/2018 08:00

IME there is a certain type of liberal white westerner who loves cultural relativism because deep down they are very racist and their cultural relativism is actually a nothing more than them saying 'oh you can't expect them to understand why racism/sexism/mutilating children is wrong, it's CULTURAL.'

But more than that I think it's racist because it allows people to suspend ethical standards they would never countenance suspending for their own people/children for those of other cultural backgrounds. FGM is a fantastic example of this although I can think of others.

BertrandRussell · 02/02/2018 08:08

Cultural relativism also means that we can avoid the hard conversations about what happens to children. Which is what we are talking about here.

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 02/02/2018 09:04

I think Elton's theory falls down with the differing intentions of both cliteral piercing and FGM.

Cliteral piercing is a choice women make to enhance sexual pleasure, likewise "designer vagina" surgery.

FGM removes sexual pleasure. That's it's purpose. It is neutering women; keeping them faithful, compliant and non-sexual.

The two practices are in fact opposites, not comparible in any way because of the juxtaposition in purpose and intent.

birdsdestiny · 02/02/2018 09:35

Thankyou certain, that expressed exactly what I think but despite drafting numerous posts failed to express. I think much of the issues around Rochdale were around that sort of mindset. " This is what happens in that community"

makeourfuture · 02/02/2018 10:12

Because they’re not the same thing. By definition, feminist implies exclusivity to women’s rights. If you want complete equality for both sexes you’re an equalist.

Well the thing is though, if women are presently disadvantaged, if you say "Hey, starting now we are going to be equalists" - how does that work with the existing disadvantage?

araiwa · 02/02/2018 10:22

When im president, anyone involved in the genital mutilation of boys or girls will be jailed. I think thats fairly equal. Bollocks to culture, religion etc there is no reason for mutilating kids

*medical staff exempted for cases of actual medical need

If at 18, they choose to have it done to themselves then they can do what they want..

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 10:30

Feminism is the only political movement to my knowledge that is expected to be all things to all people or it is declared useless.

YY. Well this thread was only ever going to go one way, wasn't it?

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 10:36

But more than that I think it's racist because it allows people to suspend ethical standards they would never countenance suspending for their own people/children for those of other cultural backgrounds. FGM is a fantastic example of this although I can think of others.

Agree with this. And some Muslim feminists for instance, have pointed this out.

makeourfuture · 02/02/2018 10:40

But more than that I think it's racist because it allows people to suspend ethical standards they would never countenance suspending for their own people/children for those of other cultural backgrounds. FGM is a fantastic example of this although I can think of others.

Is there some overthinking here perhaps? A search for an extra twist?

Because I think what a lot of people are feeling is that you shouldn't hate people because they wear a hat or a robe or something. Nothing more than that.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 02/02/2018 11:04

FGM removes sexual pleasure. That's it's purpose. It is neutering women; keeping them faithful, compliant and non-sexual

Not all forms of it do. Most of them leave the majority of the internal clitoris intact. It's only the extreme forms (which are mainly done by fundamentalist Muslims).

If you look at the East African tribes who do it, they have an extremely open and accepting attitude towards sexuality and even a socially accepted form of pre-marital sex which is a type of dry humping.

The neutering thing is a bit of a western myth from people who don't understand it very well. In fact, it's main purpose is to remove parts of the body which their traditions tell them will lead to male characteristics developing.

Which just shows why western women screaming and shouting about something they don't really understand is counterproductive. In fact, when they've sent people in who actually understand and respect their cultures and traditions, they've had more success at stopping it. Because they can actually go and show them some science and tell them about the endocrine system and how it affects male and female characteristics and that the parts removed in FGM have no bearing on this.

Cultural relativism also means that we can avoid the hard conversations about what happens to children. Which is what we are talking about here

Nope, I have been talking about adults, you (and certain) just keep bringing it back to children because you seem to be unable to deal with the fact that a lot of grown women not only want to do it, but have resisted attempts to stop it, sometimes violently.

You and certain don't seem to compute the difference between children having something done against their will and adults having it done.

Thank you though, because you are both perfect examples of the kind of feminist people on the ground say is damaging attempts to stop it. You see yourselves as crusading white knights helping save the poor little ignorant women being oppressed by men into having FGM.

The thing is; you're actually the ignorant ones. I can have a fairly good guess what a lot of those women would say to you, something along the lines of: 'You've invaded our country, taken our land, impoverished us, tried to destroy our culture and now you're saying something we have done for a thousand years makes us barbaric savages? Well fuck you and your cultural imperialism. Go back to the West where you cut your chests open and stick bags of carcinogenic plastic in them, or break your noses on purpose so you can make them look better; or stick pins into your body for vanity, and leave our vaginas alone'.

I don't understand why you can't understand that your approach has been tried for 150 years plus and it DOES NOT WORK. FGM is still happening. Believe it or not African people have minds of their own and can think for themselves and aren't just sitting waiting in ignorance for white people to tell them what to do.

The methods that have worked best to stop it have been culturally sensitive ones which were respectful of that culture whilst still encouraging them to stop. And yes there are some people who do argue that legalisation should take place because it will prevent infection and complications and reduce the amount of children it's done to. Including one of Kenya's top female doctors:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nation.co.ke/news/Legalise-female-circumcision--says-doctor-in-court/1056-4267584-view-asAMP-v12jsnz/index.html

But I get it. You think African women are just waiting for westerners to come and save them and teach them right from wrong. Because you're raaaaaacists.

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 11:17

Because I think what a lot of people are feeling is that you shouldn't hate people because they wear a hat or a robe or something. Nothing more than that.

That's a bit of an obtuse reading of why people don't like cultural relativism.

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 11:19

But I get it. You think African women are just waiting for westerners to come and save them and teach them right from wrong. Because you're raaaaaacists.

You're a big GF. And cultural relativism is bullshit.

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