to think it's time to bin the word feminism

[whatnow123]

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

My 16 year old daughter told me yesterday that feminists need to just shut up and go away.

My dd is one of the most bolshy feminist people I know, she doesn't even understand the concept of things not being equal. We did have a long conversation about what feminism means and how she has much to be grateful for, but whilst she saw my point she still hates what she perceives as feminists.

“she still hates what she perceives as feminists.”

What does she perceive as feminists? Aren’t you her feminist role model?

dione, I'm female. But to answer your question from my point of view, I think most work needs to be done internationally. And I think the most important thing, would be free, worldwide access to contraception. It would solve a lot of environmental problems too.

so yes, it's important there is a word that majority of people can get behind.
Yet the majority of people repeatedly state that they can't get behind the word Feminism MiddleagedManic.

@Thymeout Choosing to work as a promotions girl or model, dancer or hostess has nothing to do with being brought up in a patriarchal home or wearing pink as a baby. It's capitalising on an asset. If you're born with the good looks that qualify you for employment in the glamour industry, why not make the most of them, when the alternative is a low-paid job in a shop or factory?

What on earth makes you think all these women CHOSE their job as a display object? How far along the spectrum you list do you get before you end up with street prostitute? Know many young women who had that as a lifetime ambition?

And where do you draw the line? What jobs do you think all women in that profession happily choose, and when does it become about doing whatever the fuck you can to put food in your belly and keep the roof over your head?

The survey seems to indicate the different perceptions of the words "feminist" and "gender equality", not in the actual concepts. I make that claim because I don't think anyone really knows what either term really means. I don't in fact think you can accurately say something about someone's views if they say they are a feminist, or even if they say they are for gender equality. If that's the case, the reason why people may identify with one and not the other may be because it's not that they don't identify with feminist principles, it's that there is disagreement about what that precisely means. Or even what equality means.

It's certainly not clear to me what either term encompasses.

And where do you draw the line? What jobs do you think all women in that profession happily choose, and when does it become about doing whatever the fuck you can to put food in your belly and keep the roof over your head?

but people all over the world do jobs that they don't love. I'd say in fact most people who work get little to no satisfaction from the jobs, and wouldn't do it but for the fact that it puts food on the table.

The most extreme example on the other side (men), are that many men take outright dangerous jobs (military, mining etc etc etc).

Stateless princess I am well aware that fgm is mainly performed by women which makes it even more tragic and which is why we need feminism even more. We need to change the whole culture not just the law

You yourself said that the patriarchy is risking the species, so what are (as a man) specifically doing to end the patriarchy?

The most powerful thing any individual can do in a democracy is to vote. Seek out those people and parties who make socialist feminism a foundation and vote for them.

ShotsFired - I think a lot of women choose to be a "display object". Page 3, Grid Girls etc aren't the main source of objectification anymore. It's moved to social media. Woman making hundreds to thousands of pounds posting pics of themselves doing squats in yoga pants.

A 21 year old obtained, 20 million followers on instagram, became a milliomaire just through posting pics of her arse. Objectification is big money.

The most powerful thing any individual can do in a democracy is to vote. Seek out those people and parties who make socialist feminism a foundation and vote for them

You don't have to be a socialist to be a feminist. And as we all know, you're very keen to us to vote for a party which is reknowned for it's macho sexist ethos.

What on earth makes you think all these women CHOSE their job as a display object?

Aaah, the old feminist paradox. We don't want you to do what men tell you to do. We want you to do what WE tell you to do.

Wouldn't it just be nice if feminists could credit other women with the intelligence to make their own decisions without anybody telling them what to do.

Shots

It really isn't inevitable if your face is your fortune and you take jobs to capitalise on your good looks that you will end up on the streets. There's a lot of competition for high profile jobs like being a grid girl or a hostess in Stringfellows. It may not last long but it beats working in a Care Home or MacDonald's. There's always the chance that you'll meet a footballer or end up on Big Brother, like Nicki Graham or Chantelle. Not much of a chance, but, if you like dressing up and being admired, it's a more congenial and lucrative way of earning a living than packing fish.

And when your looks fade, you do what ex-actresses, ex-dancers, ex-models do. Get a 'normal' job and settle down.

You don't have to be a socialist to be a feminist. And as we all know, you're very keen to us to vote for a party which is reknowned for it's macho sexist ethos.

I have made no secret of my support for Labour. I am not sure I agree with your description, though it can always be improved.

There is an argument that stopping FGM is a form of cultural relativism and is an example of the West trying to enforce our values on another culture as 'superior'. Not sure I buy into it, but it's an interesting argument.

It a fucking stupid argument which enables things to be done to poor brown people that we would never in a million years allow to happen to our daughters.

And as soon as you understand the difference between morals and ethics it shatters into a billion little pieces.

Elton how could you even write that argument for fgm and then call it 'interesting '

Elton how could you even write that argument for fgm and then call it 'interesting ' shock
ELTON didn't agree with the statement , it is an interesting way of looking! It doesn't mean it is right by any means but that is what debate is about looking at things from different perspectives to better understand them.

We assume that when someone says an argument is 'interesting' they mean it has some merit.

That one doesn't.

It's one that has been going for 150 years. Suttee(?) where evil colonialists tried to stop brown people burning widows on their late husband's funeral pyres.

We assume that when someone says an argument is 'interesting' they mean it has some merit. That one doesn't.

It could explain why there is so much resistance though ?
My point is finding something interesting does not mean you agree it just means you are open minded to different points of view surely?

Actually people sometimes respond 'interesting' when they disagree but can see how that argument could be put together.

In the same way that I would like women to be allowed to drive, be educated and work across the world, and governments within those countries that disagree would argue that it is their right to disagree due to their culture.

I don't think the argument is valid unless it is an informed choice by the person being cut, once they are an adult. I don't think a decision taken by others that negatively impacts a vulnerable child is ever acceptable.

Personally I disagree very strongly with all genital mutilation but some how we seem just to focus on fgm and don't raise issue with circumcision of babies. It is still something done to an innocent child without their permission.

(Still not a feminist) happily egalitarian x

Lethal That is why I'm asking how feminism can stop it, how do you change people's culture if they don't want to change? People thought education, particularly of women and girls, would stop it and in some areas it has while in others in hasn't made a jot of difference.
I agree with Elton that it is in an interesting argument too, and I do think it has some merit when some people who want the practice feel that western organisations have no right to tell them to stop. It doesn't mean I support FGM in any way, I think it's awful.

Elton how could you even write that argument for fgm and then call it 'interesting '

Because it is, erm, interesting. I don't agree with it but I think it raises some interesting points. It's particularly interesting because western women tend to view it as something entirely imposed by men. But a lot of women in these cultures actually want to do it and have agitated for the right to do it in the past, and in fact, see stopping it as something being imposed on them by westerners because it is incompatible with their cultural norms.

If you want to see exactly how 'interesting' it is, Google 'FGM anthropology'. There has been a huge academic debate about FGM, particularly amongst cultural anthropologists. It's not just a Muslim practice and has a lot of it's roots in traditional African religions. I actually came across the debate in a piece of academic work I'm doing.

There is a big debate about how best to combat it. Some people have suggested given how ingrained it is that the best course of action is to encourage women to have the least extreme form done in hospitals legally (at least in the countries where it is prevalent rather than here) rather than risking them having it done in insanitary conditions where they might have the more extreme forms done.

It's is a very interesting argument and if you read more deeply into it, it's not quite as clear cut as you would imagine. But I'm very glad it's illegal here and think it should remain so. But in countries where they know women are going to have it done anyway and banning it just means you put them in more danger by driving it into underground insanitary operations that are more likely to butcher them...not quite so sure.

You know women in this country pierce their clitoris' completely legally. And that's not a million miles from FGM anyway.

“You know women in this country pierce their clitoris' completely legally. And that's not a million miles from FGM anyway”

Ah. Can I just check- do you actually know anything about FGM? For example-do you know what infibulation is?