to think it's time to bin the word feminism

[whatnow123]

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

But then you've just done exactly that Bertrand, by describing them as exploited women who are cast aside when worn out.

But then you've just done exactly that Bertrand, by describing them as exploited women who are cast aside when worn out.

That is not at all what was said there. Not. At. All.

Yes it was. She said despised the men, but then described the reason why she described the men entirely in terms of the women's value and their supposed passiveness. The women are 'exploited' and 'cast aside when they have outlived their usefulness'.

I despise the men who do it because I think somebody who is incapable of controlling their own sexuality without resorting to paying someone who isn't actually in the slightest bit interested in them aside from their cash is pathetic and seedy and probably has a greater interest in sex than is healthy and probably has personal failings which mean people don't want to shag them for free.

I don't have to denigrate the women involved to dislike them. Which is exactly what Bertrand did.

'Sadly, women benefit from the patriarchy too if they have particular ambitions and goals in life.....'

Would you care to amplify this, Bertrand?

Elton that is an extraordinary line of argument. How in the world did you get that from:

What we do is despise the people, usually men, who exploit these women, make money out of them then cast them aside when they have outlived their usefulness.

makeourfuture, I'm afraid if you're too dopey to see that in that line of argument bertrand only argues for despising men in ways which involve denigrating the women involved and their value then you're beyond help and possibly have problems with reading and comprehension. It's not a bloody hidden meaning FFS, it's right there in her post.

I don't get your posts either Elton

I agree with make and drizzle

I think Elton is trying to claim that the women who work in the sex trade all do so out of choice rather than coercion, grooming or economic necessity.

you're beyond help and possibly have problems with reading and comprehension

Hell, I wonder sometimes. I am more confused than not these days.

My reading and comprehension is awesome make so i doubt its that

No - I think Elton is spot on.

Do the women see themselves as exploited? Victims? Or as being well paid to exploit men's weaknesses?

Or at least better paid than they would be in Tesco doing a job they enjoy and feeling special for doing it.

If they're not being paid enough, I don't see feminists campaigning to unionise glamour workers. They want to ban the industry.

'In an ideal world, everyone would think the same as me and no one would do or say things I disapprove of.' That, too often, seems to be the feminist mantra. But it's not, and, in my view, it wouldn't be an ideal world at all.

Maybe we can be done with feminism when they stop cutting off 6 year old girls clitorises

Or at least better paid than they would be in Tesco doing a job they enjoy and feeling special for doing it.

You know, perhaps there are women who follow this sort of thought process when they are considering prostitution as a vocation, but I would think that for some, their career paths began a little differently.

I think Elton is trying to claim that the women who work in the sex trade all do so out of choice rather than coercion, grooming or economic necessity.

No I'm not. I'm just saying that you shouldn't say that you don't despise the women who are sex workers then in the very next breath use language which makes it clear you do 'exploited' and 'cast aside when they have outlived their usefulness' which is very much objectifying and depersonalising language. Rather than moving 'despising' onto the men involved, that description just involves concentrating on those women's degradation and how they are devalued by it.

I think they're probably all individuals who all have unique reasons for doing what they're doing. From the next hit of drugs, to pay off debt, right up to supermodels who allegedly can command a few of millions a night.

I suppose though, selling of sex being disapproved of is very much something which has it's roots in a very old fashioned type of morality. There really is the question of whether or not feminists should really be telling other women what they can or can't do with their bodies.

Put it this way, even under the incredibly generous welfare system of the last Labour government, during an economic boom - prostitution didn't disappear or go away. If anything it became more widespread and socially acceptable. So there must be some element of choice there somewhere.

I must admit I know one person who did it. She did it to pay for plastic surgery. Quite extensive plastic surgery.

I,m obviously having comprehension issues too. I can’t see how saying that I despise exploiters means I despise the exploited. But I also can’t see that working in prostitution makes women “feel special” either.........

Why are you talking about prostitution? Because it's an easier example to argue against?

I'm talking about grid girls, beauty queens, exotic dancers, hostesses. Women who earn money for looking good. WAGs. Eye candy. Whatever.

I don't sneer or look down on women choosing those jobs, but I don't think they help other women being taken seriously in other roles. The same thing as page 3 - men watching F1 on a Sunday evening, then reading the Sun on the way into work have a different view of women than perhaps I'd like when I am trying to be heard at work in a meeting room predominantly made up of men.

I'd like those women to explain their roles not in terms of 'choice' or 'making the most of their bodies' but in terms of how to explain to boys and young men what they are doing and why they are doing. What should parents of sons tell them to explain why it's ok? It has to be patriarchy surely? It is not about women's choice to work there, the reason the job exists for them to choose from is patriarchy. I'm all for choosing the job you want but when your jobs options are limited to 'presenting' the actual players, not playing yourself, or working in a school because you have kids that attend school and there are few other part time jobs out there, that you can return to a former career only by giving the care of your child over to another woman.....our choices do seem really rather limited.

We still don't have a F1 woman driver as far as I know, so yes, we need feminism still. We have a good national football team - the women's. That's great, they get more airtime these days but until kids in school are being taught about the women's world cup or are swapping stickers for the women's teams, then yes, we need feminism.

And yes, FGM. So much to do......so yes, it's important there is a word that majority of people can get behind.

use language which makes it clear you do 'exploited' and 'cast aside when they have outlived their usefulness' which is very much objectifying and depersonalising language

You are baffling me.

I am scrabbling about for an analogy.

Imagine a person being hit by a car. You might say, "The poor guy was struck, flung aside like a rag doll, and the driver left him there helpless and dejected. What an A-hole!"

How would you morph that into a slur against the victim?

FGM is almost always performed by women. I believe that research has shown that it's mostly women who want the practice to continue. Many (most?) men do not want to marry a woman who has had it done but their mothers don't let them make that choice. I'm interested to know how feminism could change that Lethal?

make

You could argue that my husband gave the company 20 good years, they exploited his loyalty and then they tossed him aside when he was of no use to them anymore

(Just an analogy...dh has never worked anywhere for 20 years)

makeourfuture, I don't think that's an accurate analogy as there is no moral judgement implied in the case of a crash victim the way there was in the initial statement.

stateless, if you look back at the history of colonisation in Kenya, there was a lot of unrest over FGM because Kenyans (including women) wanted to do it and resisted attempts to stop it.

There is an argument that stopping FGM is a form of cultural relativism and is an example of the West trying to enforce our values on another culture as 'superior'. Not sure I buy into it, but it's an interesting argument.

I'm with you Elton, but then again I was a lapdancer for several years - for loads of reasons really. I appreciate that this line of work was open to me on the back of years of disparity between the sexes, and ingrained societal sexism - I appreciate that's why the job existed - but it existed, and I had my own reasons for doing it. Feminism also wasn't at the forefront of my mind at the time, just like it isn't really for many young women - I feel no shame for that.

I also don't for a second mind anyone who wants to hate the men who spent their money with me and my friends, but to hate them for exploiting or degrading us is not a reason that bears any relation to the reality I've witnessed. It would be laughable really, in my experience.

Although I can and do hate the culture of exploitation that has resulted in the sex industry being what it is today, and I rail against that culture and history and fight to change it. I don't have a clear vision of how that should be resolved in the future if I'm honest, but I don't think it starts with demonising any individual men or women who merely live within the current status quo.

makeourfuture earlier a poster said that if men wanted women to have equality and be treated with respect it would have happened by now. You yourself said that the patriarchy is risking the species, so what are (as a man) specifically doing to end the patriarchy?