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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think it's time to bin the word feminism

464 replies

whatnow123 · 31/01/2018 15:28

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

OP posts:
CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 02/02/2018 14:49

I think you would have to, unless you want to ban all cosmetic and gender reassignment surgery too

Yeah fair enough. I'm not massively wedded to keeping either of those things but go on then Grin

I think the suggestion that we work with and in support of people in those communities is the only workable one. Obviously.

But that's not the same as accepting practices which go against our ethical framework ''cos culture' And that is my objection to cultural relativism.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 02/02/2018 14:50

Such a straw man that we want to go to other countries and preach to them like 19th century missionaries. Some people have a feverish imagination.

Yeah that was all a bit...disingenuous wasn't it Wink

BertrandRussell · 02/02/2018 14:59

My cultural sensitivity stops at the point of pinning down a 7 year old, excising her clitoris and sewing up her labia, frankly.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 02/02/2018 15:07

Racist Wink

StatelessPrincess · 02/02/2018 15:18

Thanks for answering my question.

Bertrand I don't think anyone here could disagree with that, and I'm saying that as someone who doesn't think that cultural relativism is bollocks.

PiffIeandWiffle · 02/02/2018 16:10

One of those might be that it's always wrong to cut bits off healthy children.

Which is why I find the increase in "gender reassignment" surgery for young people worrying.

But it's OK because it's done by someone in a white coat...

ReliefOfChaos · 02/02/2018 16:25

I don't think there's much disagreement on mutilating children being wrong, it's just that if we do the sensible thing and work with local groups as has been suggested it takes a long time and looks an awful lot like doing nothing (or that you don't really care). You get comments like "If men cared about this, they'd have eradicated X problem in a week" which I've seen in various threads now.

And of course if you try and enforce your moral codes (using 'male' violence of course) you inevitably end up making the problem worse. Which I honestly don't think anyone was arguing for anyway, but tends to be the assumption when people ask you "What are you doing?" and "Why hasn't anything changed then?" What more do you want anyone to do?

That's the quandry I think: action is dangerous and often makes things worse, but the 'first do no harm' approach looks like you're callous.

BertrandRussell · 02/02/2018 16:30

“You get comments like "If men cared about this, they'd have eradicated X problem in a week" which I've seen in various threads now.”

Often said by me. And I stand by it. Grin

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 02/02/2018 17:48

But it's OK because it's done by someone in a white coat...

Pop over to the feminism boards. It's not okay there Smile 'tainted' though we are...

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 02/02/2018 18:55

Eltonjohnssyrup, in response to my statement "FGM removes sexual pleasure. That's it's purpose. It is neutering women; keeping them faithful, compliant and non-sexual" you responded

"Not all forms of it do. Most of them leave the majority of the internal clitoris intact. It's only the extreme forms (which are mainly done by fundamentalist Muslims)."

I assure you, there is nothing in the Koran, Hadith or Muslim teachings that endorses FGM. FGM is an entirely cultural practice.

"If you look at the East African tribes who do it, they have an extremely open and accepting attitude towards sexuality and even a socially accepted form of pre-marital sex which is a type of dry humping.

The neutering thing is a bit of a western myth from people who don't understand it very well. In fact, it's main purpose is to remove parts of the body which their traditions tell them will lead to male characteristics developing."

Does the retainment of an intact cliterous mean a female will develop male characteristics? Can you expand on which characteristics these might be? If one of these characteristics is that a female may get 'horny' or develop a roaming eye, then how can you deny that the purpose of FGM is neutering women, removing their sex drive, keeping them faithful?

"Which just shows why western women screaming and shouting about something they don't really understand is counterproductive. In fact, when they've sent people in who actually understand and respect their cultures and traditions, they've had more success at stopping it. Because they can actually go and show them some science and tell them about the endocrine system and how it affects male and female characteristics and that the parts removed in FGM have no bearing on this."

Are you in fact suggesting that some cultures believe that an intact cliterous will mutate into male genitalia if left uncut? I agree that this nonsensical thinking (that leads to the mutilation of children, and consenting adults) needs to stop, so here is one area where we're in agreement.

Lethaldrizzle · 03/02/2018 06:43

I suppose you have a great argument for child marriage as well elton

bluescreen · 03/02/2018 21:43

I don't think there's much disagreement on mutilating children being wrong,
@Relief - maybe not much disagreement when it comes to extreme forms of FGM but massive disagreement when it comes to male circumcision (which, incidentally, I think is wrong too). See, eg, the contested position in Germany.
www.spiegel.de/international/germany/new-circumcision-ruling-requires-doctors-to-discuss-procedure-a-924984.html

YoloSwaggins · 03/02/2018 21:57

associated the word with extreme views about how they should be behaving, what they should find offensive and a negative attitude to relationships between the sexes and men in general.

Exactly - that's why I'm not a feminist. RN it's a bunch of angry women with their tits out yelling shit at parades, and getting offended over stuff I couldn't care less about (trans people in toilets). And then telling me what I should be offended about, what jokes I'm not allowed to laugh at, what I'm not allowed to say, etc. Yes I believe in equality, but not with how the movement is manifesting and not with any movement that dictates what I should think.

And everyone that's like "meh meh meh if you believe in equality you're a feminist" - no. That's like someone who believes in the Communist Manifesto but living during Chairman Mao's time and completely disagreeing with what the movement had become - they don't have to call themselves a Communist if they don't want to associate with the movement.

RatRolyPoly · 03/02/2018 22:13

I'm swaying towards your point of view Yolo. I don't know what this means for the "More feminism, less bullshit!" tea towel I got for Christmas.

bluescreen · 03/02/2018 22:59

Hold on a minute, Rat and Yolo, can you point to anything specific that ticked you off? Here on MN for example? Somewhere that dictates how you should think (rather than just disagreeing)? Someone telling you what you are allowed to laugh at?

I haven't even seen the bunch of angry women with their tits out yelling shit at parades so I've been missing a lot.

YoloSwaggins · 03/02/2018 23:09

www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/nodeimage/public/blogs_2017/09/gettyimages-179983952.jpg?itok=CDpzpCSh

Women with tits out. Not sure what this is going to do for equality.

There was a thread where people said you were a bad person if you find Frankie Boyle's jokes funny. I love Frankie Boyle and "offensive" humour.

Also, I find a lot of feminists act like victims and get annoyed when other women don't feel like victims.

"Do you not get scared walking through dark alleyways alone at night?"
"No."
"Well, you should be! You're so naive to not be terrified! Men oppress us as a class, if you haven't been assaulted you're just very lucky"

I don't feel scared of men, I walk alone in the dark all the time, I've never been catcalled by builders, I've never had any sexist comments in the workplace, I get the same salary as my boyfriend in the same job. The only cases I know of of controlling/abusive relationships were women controlling men. I just do not feel oppressed or like a victim and never have done. Yet it seems really taboo to say that to a group of feminists.

Yes, I get annoyed at things like paternity leave not matching maternity leave, but given the state of the government - not being able to afford anything - the only way they can afford giving men extra time is with SPL, which people are still moaning about.

IMO acting like a victim achieves nothing because all you're doing is relinquishing your power to change your situation and say "well I can't, it's the patriarchy". Like the dozens of women moaning on the feminism board that they moved abroad/became SAHMs to benefit their rich husband's career, and now they're stuck and "it's too late to change it now" and blaming "the patriarchy" for why no-one wants to hire them after 10 years out of work, when they entirely chose that life and brought it on themselves! It's not too fucking late, you can always take ownership of your choices and change your life instead of moaning on the internet.

Also, the current hate towards trans people and the assumption they must all be secret rapists that just want to sneak into Topshop's changing rooms to ogle women.

AssassinatedBeauty · 03/02/2018 23:13

"I don't feel scared of men, I walk alone in the dark all the time, I've never been catcalled by builders, I've never had any sexist comments in the workplace, I get the same salary as my boyfriend in the same job. The only cases I know of of controlling/abusive relationships were women controlling men. I just do not feel oppressed or like a victim and never have done. Yet it seems really taboo to say that to a group of feminists."

Does the fact that these things haven't happened to you and you don't feel this way mean that it doesn't happen to other women? It's not an issue for women because it hasn't happened to you?

RatRolyPoly · 03/02/2018 23:20

Also, the current hate towards trans people and the assumption they must all be secret rapists that just want to sneak into Topshop's changing rooms to ogle women.

This is where I'm at. You can have my fucking feminist allegiances and piss them in the wind right now for all I care. Apparently I don't care about the safety and bodily autonomy of women and girls because when I am repeatedly hounded with the question "Are transwomen men?" I won't answer to the contrary of their legally recognised gender - in fact I won't answer at all.

So all that real-life contributing to feminism I thought I'd done, that massive great big chunk of my identity, all bollocks because I'm not convinced all trans people are secret sports cheats who haven't got the guts to just DOPE.

hollowtree · 03/02/2018 23:26

yolo and rat I totally agree.

Also, on the subject of boobs out- at Download festival last year, no bands were allowed to point out women with their tops off for the cameras. The cameras weren't allowed to film them despite women EVERY year trying to get on the Download cams! I've been on them before!

But because someone complained that it was 'offensive to women' it is no longer allowed. But it was the women who wanted to do it. So who loses?

Meanwhile it's still fine for bloke to be topless. What the hell feminism stop ruining my fun at rock concerts

YoloSwaggins · 03/02/2018 23:26

But truly honestly, don't people mainly get involved in causes that personally affect them?

Israel, Palestine, ALS, cancer, domestic violence, feminism, Syria, vaccines, police brutality....unless you are a professional campaigner or have a lot of time volunteering, people usually get most involved and care most about causes and charities that affect them. Or that they resonate with/care about.

For me it's an animal sanctuary, the environment, deafblind children and trying to convince people my country isn't the shithole the Media says it is (People at work make derogatory comments based on where I come from, rather than because of me being a woman). I have never experienced or seen any of the injustices feminists talk about, they've never happened to me or to my family. I've never seen a rape culture, I've never experienced anyone thinking girls should "be quiet", in fact I've only ever seen the opposite. I work in an industry that's not only techy and STEM but really family-friendly and flexible.

I find I have nothing in common with feminists when they say things like "we are living in a terrifying time for women, by letting transwomen onto changing rooms they are stripping our rights away, I wouldn't have a daughter now because of the world she would face (genuine MN thread)" - I just switch off. I'm far more scared by the prospect of nuclear war/world running out of food/global warming/hackers deleting all our money from the bank.

AssassinatedBeauty · 03/02/2018 23:28

"Also, the current hate towards trans people and the assumption they must all be secret rapists that just want to sneak into Topshop's changing rooms to ogle women."

You know that this is not what concerns some women, this is a misrepresentation. I actually think it's irresponsible and will only serve to divide people further to promote this idea.

People have concerns about self-id, not because they think all trans people are sexual predators, but because people who are sexual predators will be able to abuse and misuse self-id for their own ends. To the detriment of girls, women and trans people.

hollowtree · 03/02/2018 23:33

And to back track... all FGM is wrong. Personally I believe so is circumcision if not for medical reasons

RatRolyPoly · 03/02/2018 23:34

This reply has been deleted

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hollowtree · 03/02/2018 23:36

rat 😂😂😂

RatRolyPoly · 03/02/2018 23:39

Honestly hollowtree I have had a BAD 48 hours.

For my part Yolo, I have seen some of the injustices; I'm extremely active in sport, I work in construction, I have actively contributed to the furtherment of women and girls in these areas. I don't begrudge any woman who hasn't, I don't begrude anyone for whom it's not an issue.

But if I can't have an opinion about the bloody gender pay gap because I'm not suitably terrified by the idea of a unidentified penis within a hundred yards of me well FUCK ME, I'm done.

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