to think it's time to bin the word feminism

[whatnow123]

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

Gosh. For someone who 'just thinks it's an interesting argument' you sure are arguing it!

It's great that you've found so many lovely arguments for a practice which is responsible for wholesale mutilations of girls worldwide. Very clever of you.

And anyone who disagrees is a racist. Brilliant. Have a gold star.

It's DARVO is it. That acronym?

Gosh. For someone who 'just thinks it's an interesting argument' you sure are arguing it!

Yes, strange that!

Another women, who identified herself as a feminist, with the best intentions, stated their jobs demeaned them as individuals, and women as a whole.

Yet if anyone dares to criticise women for going out down town with their arses & tits hanging out they'd get slated because "it's their choice, they can express themselves" whereas I'd class that as giving totally the wrong image....

Personally I'd rather my daughter was dressed like this in the safe environment of the sporting venue and sober rather than pissed in Cardiff town centre - but it's her right innit......

I took a long time to think and reflect about this in the past few months. From my point of view it seems like all the advances that feminism made towards equalism was something that was put up with in times of need, like during the wars, to appease the half of the population they needed in the workforce etc. Then, as soon as women are no longer viewed as vital part of the workforce (think 50s) they are bungled away at home, being told to be grateful about it, because "look how much you have achieved already", with the few concessions being played up until it can be presented as a true equality, therefore nothing else needs to be done. At the same time there is always a subtle effort to turn the clock back if possible. Think of it as a see saw, if pre-ww1 position of the women was on the ground, then we got quarter of a way up and now we are being persuaded that, as we are actually higher, it's high enough and anything more is an attempt to put the men's side on the ground instead of reaching the equilibrium. And anyone actually daring to voice this is being witch hunted as a she-wolf, neofeminist b*h, neomarxist and whatever not. Yet the goal is still the same, equality, whether of not it is being presented as something outrageous and no matter who says women's rights are now sorted, as long as you have to term them as women's rights it means we're still not there, because you need a name for the discrepancy in rights and opportunities of every human being.

Gosh. For someone who 'just thinks it's an interesting argument' you sure are arguing it!

Actually, if I agree with any viewpoint on it, I agree that culturally sensitive education which brings in the relevant science is probably the way to go.

It's great that you've found so many lovely arguments for a practice which is responsible for wholesale mutilations of girls worldwide. Very clever of you.

certain, what I'm trying to make you understand is that it's a very complex issue. And it's not as simple as you seem to think which is 'we'll just tell them we know best and to stop it'. It's not just an issue of women 'passively' being mutilated as you seem to think. A lot of women WANT it done and have actively resisted attempts to stop it.

And anyone who disagrees is a racist. Brilliant. Have a gold star.

You were the one who started chucking around the racist label.

You've added nothing to the conversation. You have no idea about the history or practice of FGM or it's context in African culture. You don't actually seem to have any suggestions about how it might be stopped.

All you seem able to do is get nasty, angry and chuck about insults. You have zero willingness to understand anything about it's context in African culture or what the women who have it done actually feel about it. Which is essential for any attempt to stop it.

The only viewpoint you seem to have as that to your cultural norms you have a knee jerk reaction to it which you want to impose on people of another culture without a single thought for what their wants or needs are or what they need to know to want to stop it. Because you see your view and outlook as the only one. What these African people want is irrelevant to you, you only want to impose your will.

That is the very definition racism. You are a racist.

Elton I find it's best to just ignore these types of posters. They will continue to misrepresent what you are saying until they make you angry, and when you respond angrily that just becomes something else to misrepresent.

I suggest either ignoring their comments entirely, and only engaging with those who will debate honestly, or else countering their misrepresentations by presenting factual information and links, including about viewpoints held by others, but without quoting them or addressing them directly. This allows lurkers reading the thread to follow your points, but prevents those employing dishonest arguments from derailing the discussion. With luck, they'll get bored by your lack of response and go away.

You're a big GF. And cultural relativism is bullshit.

Really? Is the Journal of Medical Ethics which has printed similar arguments 'a big GF' then?

kesstrel thanks. I think I should stop trying to explain things to people who obviously haven't got the capacity to understand them.

I think it's GF to start calling posters racist, yes. And academia has a lot of ideas that are basically empty noise. I think it's you who doesn't have the capacity to understand what people are saying. Oh some long words, someone cleverer than me wrote it, it must be intelligent!

You look at pictures of women in Kabul and Tehran before their respective Islamic revolutions and compare them with after, and then you can wank on about cultural relativism.

It's not about racism. It's about recognising the misogyny of patriarchal practices everywhere.

I don't believe majority of the local female population in affected countries actually want FGM. There is definitely starting to be more opposition to it.

I dont need too much brain capacity to realise if adult women really do choose FGM its not the same as if they choose it for their children.

Why are you wittering on about Kabul and Afghanistan?

It's not a particular problem in Afghanistan, and certainly not Iran where it has been shown to be massively in decline, widely rejected and in fact has led the most successful campaign against it?

You really actually have no idea what you're talking about do you?

It's about recognising the misogyny of patriarchal practices everywhere

It's about imposing your views on a different culture without actually caring what they think or actually knowing fuck all about the issue.

I dont need too much brain capacity to realise if adult women really do choose FGM its not the same as if they choose it for their children

But perhaps just a little bit more to read the repeated sections where I said the argument for legalisation on adults is that it will stop it being done on children?

I give up. Some of you obviously aren't actually reading anything and are just screaming from knee jerk responses despite clearly knowing next to nothing about it.

Enjoy carrying on with your attitudes which have been widely shown to entrench resistance to stopping FGM. You're doing nothing worthwhile and are just signalling your own virtue pointlessly.

Are there a lot of women who choose to have their clitorises cut off as adults?

@betrand maybe you'll never know because they've already had them cut off as children?

Ereshkigal I can't speak about Afghanistan because I don't know enough about it but I know that in Iran lots of women supported the Islamic revolution. There is a really good book which explores that further (I've recommended it about 10 times on MN) by Nina Ansary, it's called Jewels of Allah.

Surely if someone thinks cultural relativism is bollocks then you are saying your culture is superior to others and you have the right to impose it on people who have beliefs and practices you don't agree with? Which as Elton has explained, doesn't usually work anyway.
If you don't think it's racist but about fighting misogyny what can western feminists do to help women who do not actually want their help?

Surely if someone thinks cultural relativism is bollocks then you are saying your culture is superior to others and you have the right to impose it on people who have beliefs and practices you don't agree with?

Or it could mean that you feel that there are certain ethical considerations which are so important that they should apply to everyone everywhere. Which is basically a declaration of human rights I suppose. One of those might be that it's always wrong to cut bits off healthy children. Another might be that it's always wrong to cut bits off healthy adults too. You could split those up though just in case they made anyone's head fall off at the injustice of the thing.

I don't think the first is negotiable tbh and I actually think the second is pretty robust too.

And I'm fairly sure I could get a lot of people to agree with me without those people being scared of anyone in a hat or a robe. Hell, some of them might even be wearing hats or robes.

Why are you wittering on about Kabul and Afghanistan?

It's not a particular problem in Afghanistan, and certainly not Iran where it has been shown to be massively in decline, widely rejected and in fact has led the most successful campaign against it?

Cultural relativism does not begin and end with FGM. Learn to read.

Or it could mean that you feel that there are certain ethical considerations which are so important that they should apply to everyone everywhere. Which is basically a declaration of human rights I suppose.

YY.

Ereshkigal I can't speak about Afghanistan because I don't know enough about it

You should learn. Thanks for the book recommendation by the way, I am always willing to read different viewpoints.

You could split those up though just in case they made anyone's head fall off at the injustice of the thing. I think you would have to, unless you want to ban all cosmetic and gender reassignment surgery too.
So what is a feminist solution to end FGM among communities that want it to continue?

Ereshkigal You're welcome, I've got about 8 books on Afghanistan waiting to be read but I'm currently obsessed with the bronze age so they'll have to wait a bit longer.

So what is a feminist solution to end FGM among communities that want it to continue?

Support local groups that want to stop it in whichever way they feel is most appropriate. As precisely no one has said that they wouldn't do. Such a straw man that we want to go to other countries and preach to them like 19th century missionaries. Some people have a feverish imagination.

See if you can culturally relativise Afghan women's lives under the Taliban. I'll call it the Pomo challenge.