AIBU to ask why you for Brexit?

[BillySmut56]

I'm politically neautral on Brexit, it's a complicated issue, but I'm interested in the consequences that are coming out now. If you voted for Brexit, what were your reasons?

Nationalism was the spring board for fascism , I am not suggesting that everyone who voted leave is fascist or racist for that matter .

Peace and prosperity trumps nationalistic fervour in my book , the latter has allowed governments to shift the blame for their own inadequacies and mismanagement .

I actually think the UK is an amazing place , but then the Dutch love Holland , the French love France , Germans are pretty keen on Germany etc , why does being proud of where you live mean you need to stop being part of something which gives such huge socio-economic benefits ?

Why do people believe that being one of the 28 countries means we are somehow diluting our ability to govern ourselves , go to any of these countries and you will find that they are all different , do things differently , have different systems , pay different taxes , including VAT ( Ireland VAT is 0% on certain feminine hygiene products , how can this have happened if they are one of the 28 ? ) Certain things are done differently in Scotland to England , so within the UK there are differences between the countries . To listen to some leavers though you would think this was impossible .

www.vatlive.com/vat-rates/european-vat-rates/

A little link to all the different VAT rates in the 28 countries

A question to the Leave voters on here , which EU laws /missives/ directives /rules do you dislike and why ?

which EU laws /missives/ directives /rules do you dislike and why ?

If you add in the caveat, not one promoted by the UK or one of the 3% of EU laws actively opposed by the UK, there shouldn't be too long a list to chose from, so this should be an easy task.

If you don't add the caveat, then the list is much much longer, but the blame at least has to be shared with the Westminster Government.

@frumpety FoM

There's no point asking questions from leavers, they don't have the answers and neither do the government...

FoM is a popular one but with a year until UK leaves it still hasn’t sorted it’s only land border with an EU country.

@mummmy2017
There are loads of Articles about the power Germany and France wield in the direction the EU go, so no I won't be posting any, and for you to pretend this isn't true, shows why we have different outlooks on the issues

But there is a big difference between an 'article' in the Mail or the Sun or an actual fact based reference and to pretend otherwise is perhaps why we have different outlooks the issue.

Factually Germany is the biggest country and pays the most money but for sensitive decisions unanimity is required so they get one vote just the same as Cyprus.

Germany and France do have a significant amount of influence but so does the U.K. - I offer you the 97% figure (amount of proposals UK supported) to prove this claim.

Can you prove anything you claim?

I don't need to prove anything.
As you said and you have agreed that France and Germany are the largest and do have significant influence.....

The VoteWatch Europe study found that during EU Council votes between 2009-15 “the UK government was on the losing side a far higher proportion of times than any other EU government”.

According to the research - which classed both a No vote and an abstention as opposition to EU Council proposals - during those six years Britain was on the losing side more than one in ten times (12.3 per cent).

This marked a jump in the UK’s number of losing votes from the 2004-2009 period, when Britain accepted more than 97 per cent of EU laws - at a time when the last Labour Government was in power.

Since 2009 to 2015 Britain has agreed with more than 86 per cent of EU laws.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/662422/EU-referendum-Brexit-Britain-outvoted-EU-Council-VoteWatch-Europe-study-MEPs

Where it's printed, doesn't mean it's untrue.

From mummmy’s link:

However, it [the UK] has supported more than 97% of the EU laws adopted in the last 12 years, a new report published by VoteWatch Europe shows.

According to the study, the UK seems to have diminished its influence in the European Parliament in recent years, as a result of self-distancing of some of its own party delegations from the EU’s mainstream political families, as well as due to the results of the latest EU elections in the UK.

So some UK MEPs aligned themselves with EU parliamentary groups with less influence and then wondered why they had less influence? Wonder which MEPs are being referred to?

We are the MOST voted against...

It’s a bit more nuanced than that though mummmy.

Overall, using the best available data on EU decision-making, the evidence suggests that on average the EU government has not been marginalised in the making of EU legislation. The UK government is closer to final EU policy outcomes than are most other EU governments.

ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/is-the-uk-marginalised-in-the-eu-2/

There was a considerable shift in UK voting between 2004-2009 (losing 2.6% of votes) and 2009-2015 (losing 12.3%) - but there was also more overall conflict in the Council during the latter period.

Also, in that latter period the UK government may have wanted to register opposition to EU decisions for domestic consumption - ie to appease the Tory eurosceptics.

And you also don’t know which policies the UK voted against - were they the minor issues that the UK were less interested in whilst getting the more important policies passed in its favour?

ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does-the-uk-win-or-lose-in-the-council-of-ministers/

Nor do you.

We asked for help, to be able to present something to the UK to that would be enough to stop the need for Brexit, and guess what, we were told No.

DC failed, and it wasn't enough to stop the need for the Referendum,
Then he presented ALL the facts he could ,too tell us this wasn't the way to go forward, there have been so many ways in the last few years to fight back against what has happened, and each time we, the UK were rebuffed, you can pedal all the figures you like but the cumulative end results are what has come to pass.
No matter what or how much you dislike it this is a case of cause and effect.

mummmy - you linked to an article in the Express which had some headline figures to support your view, but then call it “pedalling figures” if the data behind those headlines is called out as more nuanced than what the Express would like you to think.

It’s not “cause and effect” - much of what the Leave voters have railed against has been caused by the failings of successive UK governments to address problems and inequalites in the country.

failings of successive UK governments to address problems and inequalites in the country

Oh and there we have why we voted leave, for your own typing,,,

Sorry just back from work , thank you mission so FOM is one of the things or the only thing you dislike about being one of the 28 countries in the EU ?

What is your understanding of what FOM actually means, as it is currently in the UK .

failings of successive UK governments to address problems and inequalites in the country

Oh and there we have why we voted leave, for your own typing .

Mummy you do realise you voted to leave the EU not the UK , right ?

SersioulycanitgetWORSE but the point of this Europe centric stuff is that it is all reciprocal. We let EU citizens come to the UK, but we also have the same rights to move to 27 other countries, live and work there, receive healthcare and pensions etc. I understand the point that there are also skilled people elsewhere in the world but more than 50% of current immigration is from the rest of the world already.

We are the MOST voted against

That isn't really how it works though is it ,saying that all the other MEP's from all the other parties in all the other 27 countries are against just us simply isn't true . Do you know which MEP's from the other 27 countries also voted the same way as MEP's from the UK ? Do you know why the UK MEP's voted the way they did on all the votes they have taken part in or bothered to turn up at ?

mummmy do you disagree with the numerous research findings that the Leave vote was most concentrated amongst those with the least economic resources? Is it not the job of the UK government to ensure that economic resources are distributed more fairly within the UK?

The thing is it's really not as simple as votes for or against. Labour MEPs may vote in a different way to Tory members of the Council.

The EU is not a monolith that always votes against the U.K. seeing issues in simplistic nationalistic ways does not help.

Labour MEPs may support a proposal opposed by Tory Council representatives.

Nationalism really helps no one. The idea that the U.K is a homogenous body where everyone believes the same thing is naive and simplistic. Proposals are made and adjusted and changed. The simplistic braying of the Mail or the Express framing issues in a nationalistic way helps no one.

Most posters on this thread are British citizens and we don't all agree so why is the U.K. view portrayed as for or against?

I expect JRM to soon announce creation of BSS: Brexit Security Service (or Brexit Schutzstaffel as he likes to call it privately) in order to address the pressing issues of the lack of uniformity of opinion on Brexit in the UK, as well as any signs of non-conformance with the will of the people.

I expect JRM to soon announce creation of BSS
He tried to do that by a dozen crack Momentum ninjas burst into the room and shut down free speech.

He tried to do that but

What a shame. The world really needs another SS, and JRM-like creatures for that matter.

shut down free speech.

Which is embarrassing because the police are expected to be there first to shut it down on hate speech grounds. There is some logic to Tory police cuts now.

Don't you think that if the lower educated and the poorest in a community are that upset 17million go out and vote, there is something pretty shitty happening in a country...