AIBU to ask why you for Brexit?

[BillySmut56]

I'm politically neautral on Brexit, it's a complicated issue, but I'm interested in the consequences that are coming out now. If you voted for Brexit, what were your reasons?

In fact silverysurfer, of which I am also one, Remainers haven't been telling people why they really voted, they have been saying that the reasons like 'Regain sovereignty' don't stand up because we never lost it.

So please tell me how we preserve the Good Friday Agreement and have Brexit. When you have done so, tell Theresa May too, because she could do with some help in that quarter.

@mummmy2017

You should really look at the fact file OliviaD68 linked to on another thread.

The UK has supported 97% of EU proposals in the last 12 years. That would strongly suggest either we agree with others or they agree with us. On the whole being in an organisation where you don't win 3% of the time seems like excellent odds. We clearly have power and influence.

I would be interested in the link where it says Germany and France "set the rules."

As I said we have more power to influence from within than outside, and we will have to abide by EU rules. One of the reasons I voted remain.

I voted Remain but honestly now would vote Leave after seeing the contempt in which the leaders of the EU hold us. It has been very enlightening.

I think the EU leavers have been remarkably restrained considering we have told them we don't want to be part of their club, don't want to welcome their citizens, told them to go whistle. They have even said they would have us back.

I voted Remain. It's clear that in order to trade in whatever form with other EU countries we will still need to abide by their rules. Better to be on the team that makes them than outside. I think the UK has an overestimated sense of it's own importance in the global marketplace that comes from imperialist days. Any trade deals we do, and the world will see us as the desperate fools we are, will come with conditions, ones we might not like. We do not have a strong negotiating position. We had the language advantage, and a strong financial sector. This has made UK and also Ireland a really popular place for setting up a EU HQ. We are throwing this down the toilet for some vague notion of sovereignty and making our own laws. I don't think I have seen anyone list the EU laws that they object to so much yet.

So we already have sovereignty, agree with most of the laws set by EU going on empirical evidence, and are part of the world's largest trading block, allowing frictionless trade with 27 other countries. As someone said above, we have more trade with Belgium than with China. Proximity counts for a lot. The only (not debunked) reasons for leaving that make any logical sense are that you believe the EU will implode, in which case we'd be fucked too anyway, or you don't like EU immigration and feel it is worth this cluster fuck to stop it. Both are stupid reasons.

after seeing the contempt in which the leaders of the EU hold us. It has been very enlightening.

The EU negotiators have been very straightforward. There has been zero transparency from the UK team.

EU negotiators want the best for the people they represent. They are skilled, talented and knowledgeable. I wish they still represented me.

At the end of the day, anything serious that affects the EU will have consequences in the UK, financial or otherwise. We just wont have a seat at the table anymore and therefore can have no influence. If something really terrible happens, e.g. War, we won't just be able to ignore and think we're safe on our little island. History should tell us how reliant we are on other countries. Even 70 years we weren't self-sufficient for food etc. And now we rely on others for electricity! our power and train companies are partially foreign owned.

Why did I vote remain ? a few reasons really

1. I didn't see how being a member of the EU was a bad thing , I researched it and couldn't come up with anything bad that the EU had 'done' to us as a country , plenty our own governments had done though .

1. There was no plan , I like a plan , a plan is essential in these circumstances . Still no plan , see my previous moving house post to see where we currently are in negotiations .

1. I find being spoken to loudly and slowly in a posh voice infuriating , it is a tactic I have seen used so often where the person speaking thinks that as a fully paid up member of the hoi polloi I should tug my forelock and take what they are saying as gospel . Nope it is just talking , if you make any kind of sense I will listen . I am also highly suspicious of anyone with the sort of wealth that the main protagonists have , telling me things are going to be fine or that I may have to endure a few rough years , they will be fine and they will not have to endure anything , so have nothing to lose , its all a big game to them .

1. Henry Vlll powers , I do not want that sort of power in the hands of so few , this is bad from a democracy and sovereignty view , very very bad .

1. I think leaving the EU is a massive slur to the memories of all those who died fighting fascism during WWll and all those civilian casualties . I think that is why I felt such shame when the result of the referendum came in . Those poor people , the sacrifice they made so quickly forgotten

5. I think leaving the EU is a massive slur to the memories of all those who died fighting fascism during WWll and all those civilian casualties . I think that is why I felt such shame when the result of the referendum came in . Those poor people , the sacrifice they made so quickly forgotten

This sort of post always puzzles me.

Are you saying that a vote to leave was a vote for fascism?
Or are you suggesting that WWII was fought for the cause of a United States of Europe?

Because neither of those things are true.

If neither of those, then what exactly does that statement mean?

Are you saying that a vote to leave was a vote for fascism?

With Farage as the leader of one of the Leave groups, a known fascist, the answer must be that for some voters the answer was yes.

Was WW2 fought to defeat fascism, or was it fought to have a 40 year arms race between two superpowers? Discuss!

We haven't got a United States of Europe, more than 80 years on, so it certainly wasn't that.

The EU grew out of post war optimism. For centuries European countries have fought each other. WW1 resulted in Versailles and therefore WW2.

Relatively quickly after WW2 the EU was formed with a desire to trade in peace. It was a major change to all previous European policy. Franco German relations had been fraught for centuries and post WW2 they were working for peace. Do not underestimate the political bravery that formed the EU. Politicians looked for hope and peace rather than repeating past mistakes. Is this not what we want.

And in the middle of this kinda mistakes were made the U.K. would not join and then De Gaulle refused us entry. Not perfect but so much better than the past.

Out of the ashes of WW2 came hope and optimism and a desire to work together. It has not been perfect but it is a lot bloody better than what happened prior to the EU.

I don't know where "kinda" came from. Apologies.

I understand all that mousse, and agree.

It's the oft cited notion that those who fought against fascism & the nazis in WWII were motivated to do so due to wanting a united Europe that I have issue with - that people sacrificed their lives in vain because U.K. voted to leave a political & economic union.

They didn't.

They were fighting for peace though.

The EU is one of the reasons Western Europe (excepting the former Yugoslavia) has had the longest period of peace in modern history.

Not perfect but a lot better than the past. 70 years of peace should not be easily dismissed or voted against.

This is an interesting quote for example:

‘the new Europe of solidarity and co-operation among all its people will find rapidly increasing prosperity once national economic boundaries are removed’.

I have to say I find the constant racist card the remainers wave around to be slightly hypocritical. Going forward the whole world will have the chance of immigration into the uk on a level playing field, no longer will a majority white European population have priority over people from Africa or Asia. Surely the worldwide level playing field is less racist than the preference for European immigration based on the origin countries financial contribution into inefficient beaucracy

Mouse, the power of the government of the time to perhaps influence all the other nations perhaps... Otherwise leaving us as a country wide open to assault by rouge government, leaders like... Already happened with Tony Blair.

Thankfully that assault on this country will not be allowed to happen again. Placing other ideals before the nuts and bolts needs of this country.
It's very clear we cannot trust government and we need as many freedoms as possible to manoeuvre away from mistakes, rather than being shackled down by layers of rules and laws!

dip

The actual reality of this preference towards to Europe is mind boggling.
Wonderful amazing people from outside the eu jumping through hoops to work here, costing a fortune for visas etc, good upstanding people who would make a wondeful fulcontribution to this country fighting to get in when we have allowed literally anyone in from across the eu.

Ie people like the ones who bashed that man's face in when they burgled his house and there was nothing at all to stop those criminals coming here along with all the others. Yes we have % of wonderful people from Europe but with no checks or balances we have allowed criminals in too. And those criminals have hurt and killed people.

@SersioulycanitgetWORSE

The U.K. government seriously lacks regulations, checks and balances which allows misconduct to occur. The oft quoted "parliamentary dictatorship".

The EU regulations stops government misuse of powers. The European Court oversees regulation. Oversight or loss of sovereignty?

The rule of law doesn't shackle us it frees us.

The actual reality of this preference towards to Europe is mind boggling.

Alternatively, the actual reality against the rest of the world is what is mind boggling. Theresa May, for reasons best known to herself, tried and failed to cut immigration from elsewhere down to 100,000. She included students in these targets, making the assumption that many were overstaying their visas. It was not until Amber Rudd took over at the Home Office that anyone bothered to commission some research into the issue, only to find that only a very small percentage overstayed their visas. There is nothing to stop the Home Office now from relaxing visa conditions from the rest of the world, as indeed, they are beginning to realise that they might have to do in order to staff the NHS, hospitality and food picking industries. Unfortunately having made loud statements about making a hostile environment for immigrants significant numbers have taken TM at her word, and are seeking opportunities elsewhere.

Recollect that last year Theresa May rushed off to India with some fanfare to discuss trade deals with India - their condition was more visas for their citizens, which she wasn't prepared to grant, so her empty handed return received less attention.

There are loads of Articles about the power Germany and France wield in the direction the EU go, so no I won't be posting any, and for you to pretend this isn't true, shows why we have different outlooks on the issues.

Everyone was talking about how little DC was able to when he went asking to stop Brexit. or do you thing that didn't happen as well.

I'm still fighting for Remain because what we're hearing from the Leave side is that Leaving will be shite, however it turns out!

Basically, I feel better off within Europe, rather that UK nationalism, what with me being Welsh and all!