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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask why you for Brexit?

604 replies

BillySmut56 · 30/01/2018 12:01

I'm politically neautral on Brexit, it's a complicated issue, but I'm interested in the consequences that are coming out now. If you voted for Brexit, what were your reasons?

OP posts:
Julie8008 · 31/01/2018 23:20

This makes the EU more democratic than the UK

And there is our disagreement, your happy to sacrifice what the UK people considers democracy because you prefer an EU version of democracy. I am not.

The EU might be democratic for the EU generally but it is not democratic for the UK people specifically. And the UK does not want to be a region of an EU country. Yet some of the UK and EU elite keep trying to force us into something we dont want. Its controlling abusive behaviour.

Run

StillPissedOff · 01/02/2018 00:24

"Sacrifice" !!???
There's your problem right there - the fact that you think it is the EU to blame and not our own Westminster governments!
Our problems are not caused by the EU at all - they are caused by our own right-wing government! (And the Lib-Tory one that came before, and the Labour right-wing government that came before that!)

durgha · 01/02/2018 01:08

Rufus, I like your aproposals, and Ghost's posts. I also like the rhyming, but not so much the likes of whatshername and the other one's posts. They don't seem to like people much.

makeourfuture · 01/02/2018 05:49

There's your problem right there - the fact that you think it is the EU to blame and not our own Westminster governments

Dead. Centre.

MongerTruffle · 01/02/2018 06:02

Th EU is a democracy this means we might not win every vote.
And yet in the European Council, the UK has been on the winning side 98% of the time since 1999.

frumpety · 01/02/2018 06:28

Julie how are you expecting the government to proceed in the process of leaving the EU ? does the lack of clarity regarding our ( the UK's ) position not worry you ?
How would you feel if we don't leave the EU ? how will it effect your day to day living if we remain ?

frumpety · 01/02/2018 06:37

Also Julie please stop with the whole 'the people of the UK ' rhetoric , the referendum was won by leave on the slimmest of margins , just over half voted leave , this means that just under half didn't , neither side can change that fact unfortunately . That does not mean however that you are correct using the term 'UK people' , because almost half of those UK people disagree with you and your premise , I appreciate it is a bit more long winded but ' just over half of the people in the UK ' would be the factually correct phrase to use Smile

MissionItsPossible · 01/02/2018 06:42

Like many I don’t like to condemn leavers as being stupid gullible racists who believe whatever anti eu rubbish they read in the tabloids. The problem is, I’ve yet to meet one who isn’t.

I voted Leave. Who am I racist against?

FlyTipper · 01/02/2018 06:50

user1482573375 Wed 31-Jan-18 21:24:28
Why shouldn't they be angry, this country has never given a shit about poor white people. I grew up as one.
Look at the guardian newspaper. All brexit voters were thick stupid idiots. Not people who were bloody angry. The stupid ones are the middle class liberals who never saw this coming.
I absolutely understand why they voted for brexit. If you honestly don't know, then you must be out of touch.

The angry working class is the oft-quoted reason for Brexit. As the analyses are done, we in fact see a surprising picture. The votes wot won Brexit were MIDDLE class, southerners. Working class also voted out in big numbers but didn't win it. What swung the vote was the disaffected middle.

tallulahwullah · 01/02/2018 06:58

Because when infrastructure is under strain you build more & cap numbers.
Why this has been called racism i don't know?!
Can't get docs appt,
Can't get closest school choice & sick of traffic jams & parking chaos.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 01/02/2018 07:03

Those are British made problems Talluah. Certain sectors are reliant on foreign workers and will struggle post Brexit.

frumpety · 01/02/2018 07:14

Actually 'just over half the people in the UK' would be incorrect , please amend to 'just over half of those who voted in the Referendum ' still not very snappy but absolutely true fact Grin

Myrnafoy · 01/02/2018 07:16

Ok Tallulah so the crisis in the Nhs and the educational system, even traffic jams are solely due to those pesky immigrants Confused look nearer to home as in austerity measures and you might see the answer !

frumpety · 01/02/2018 07:46

I think Tallulah , you might have inadvertently answered your own question ? The issue is that there is a lot of house building going on , lots of new houses being built in most areas , how many new schools and primary and acute care facilities do you see being built to support the needs of the residents of these developments ? How is the infrastructure being developed to cope with say 5,000 extra homes ? The answer is it isn't for the most part , so the infrastructure becomes overwhelmed . That is a UK issue not an EU issue .

Moussemoose · 01/02/2018 08:00

@Julie8008

My point is it is not what you an I like or prefer. You stated, on numerous occasions, that the EU is undemocratic. You are wrong it is a functioning democracy.

You then said you just don't like the idea of loosing to foreigners. I think that is your issue. It would help if you were clearer about this.

The EU might be democratic for the EU generally but it is not democratic for the UK people specifically

I think what you are saying is you don't like the form of democracy used. Ok you don't like it but that doesn't make it undemocratic.

Yet some of the UK and EU elite keep trying to force us into something we dont want

Nobody is forcing anybody we are a democracy.

I have plenty of issues about UK democracy but we all have lives to live and not enough time.

frumpety · 01/02/2018 08:01

Is it also not a teensy bit ironic to be complaining about the issues surrounding population increase on a site dedicated to well , population increase Wink

makeourfuture · 01/02/2018 08:04

sick of traffic jams & parking chaos

You aren't in traffic.

You are traffic.

LondonMum8 · 01/02/2018 09:35

Can't get closest school choice & sick of traffic jams & parking chaos.

The thing is the majority of immigrants come from outside the EU. When I'm sometimes struggling with such issues, it doesn't appear that EU migrants are the main contributors.

Peregrina · 01/02/2018 10:21

White working class and ethnic people do have higher amounts of immigration in their areas though. It's about a class of people who no one cares about. It's about them being forced out of areas because of immigration and gentrification. It's about white working class having no opportunity, particularly boys. It's about the class system, being very much in force still............ Why shouldn't they be angry, this country has never given a shit about poor white people.

In most cases, white working class areas don't have much EU immigration - the reason being that immigrants go where the work is, and these are areas which having lost their industry, deliberate Thatcherite policy, haven't developed much else to replace it. I used to live in North Staffs - i.e. with Potteries, Textiles, and you may be surprised, Coal mining, as three of the industries. The first two were beginning to lose out to global competition in the 1960s, and having worked in the textile industry, I would put it down to poor management and lack of investment, because most of the workers were conscientious and hard working.

Needless to say the coal mines have now gone.

I don't think immigrants have forced anyone out of these areas. Indeed with house prices being cheap, and some delightful country in N Staffs they could be desirable places to get a start on the housing ladder, but you need work. I don't see the Tory Government sending any task forces round the country to find out what skills people have and making a push to get industry to come to those areas.

I agree that the powers that be haven't given a shit about poor white people, and I am sure that for many the vote was a protest against Cameron and his wealthy chums. Well, it's backfired, because the wealthy people in May's Cabinet haven't got a clue as to how to bring wealth into the country (other than tax havens), or how to relate to ordinary people. Phil Hammond does at least acknowledge that.

Julie8008 · 01/02/2018 17:33

the fact that you think it is the EU to blame and not our own Westminster governments! Don't put words in my mouth, I have said UK politicians have colluded with EU politicians for their own agenda. We have had to vote leave to overrule our political 'leaders' in the UK and the EU.

does the lack of clarity regarding our (the UK's) position not worry you
That's a remainers narrative, I dont see any need for a public position to be declared before you have negotiated what the future relationship will be, just seems counterproductive to do so.

How would you feel if we don't leave the EU ? how will it effect your day to day living if we remain ? Before the referendum I wouldn't have cared either way. Now if we dont leave the EU I will feel UK democracy has been subverted/betrayed, it will change how I vote, I will probably start campaigning to escape the EU immediately (which I have never done before). It will probably make me open to doing things I would never have considered before, if democracy is dead what do we have left?

the referendum was won by leave on the slimmest of margins
How can anyone claim the EU is a democracy and then claim a UK vote should be trivialised/ignored because the majority was only 1.5 million votes.

You then said you just don't like the idea of loosing to foreigners
That is your spin, I have said I dont think it is democratic for the UK to have laws imposed on it by foreign countries against our will, without any ability for us to amend or repeal them ever.

I think what you are saying is you don't like the form of democracy used
Again no, you keep putting words in my mouth, to suit your own agenda? I have said I believe the EU process is not democratic for UK citizens.

Nobody is forcing anybody we are a democracy
Until we had a referendum we were lied to about having a say and ultimately forced into more and more integration. Not we have had a say there is still a lot of powerful people trying to force us to stay in it. Lets see if we really do live in a democracy.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 01/02/2018 17:51

I have said UK politicians have colluded with EU politicians for their own agenda. We have had to vote leave to overrule our political 'leaders' in the UK and the EU.

A think its called collaboration rather than collusion. You could already "overrrule" politicians in Westminster and Brussels via elections.

That's a remainers narrative, I dont see any need for a public position to be declared before you have negotiated what the future relationship will be, just seems counterproductive to do so.

If you believe in democracy then the government should be open and transparent about Brexit. It is now dismissing its own departments Brexit report. Politicians are supposed to act in the interests of the country.

if democracy is dead what do we have left?

It was an opinion poll, we live in a representative democracy.

I have said I dont think it is democratic for the UK to have laws imposed on it by foreign countries against our will, without any ability for us to amend or repeal them ever.

This isn't true though is it?

Not we have had a say there is still a lot of powerful people trying to force us to stay in it

Alot of powerful people campaigned to take the UK out and is now campaigning for a hard Brexit!

Eltonjohnssyrup · 01/02/2018 17:58

In most cases, white working class areas don't have much EU immigration - the reason being that immigrants go where the work is, and these are areas which having lost their industry

They certainly do if they live in urban areas. Even if they don't, it's a problem when employers can import labour to the areas where they want it by bringing in a highly mobile workforce from overseas. It means that they don't have to do things like moving their jobs to areas where a cheap workforce is available e.g. areas of high working class employment.

Moussemoose · 01/02/2018 18:10

@Julie8008

It is impossible to argue or respond to your points as they just don't make sense. You start by declaring the EU is not democratic. Then in another post you agree it is the form of democracy you object to. You clearly have zero understanding of the legislative process in the EU, we can and do influence legislation, yet you keep on saying we don't.

I have said I believe the EU process is not democratic for UK citizens
It is either is democratic or it isn't. This statement is nonsensical.

Not only do you not understand the EU you do not understand the U.K. system of government either. Referenda are advisory, parliament is sovereign.

You are quiet simply incorrect in a number of areas.

So the rest of you Brexiters reading this, what do remainers do? We have tried to engage the poster but she clearly does not understand the issues. Are we patronising? Am I allowed to point out votes were cast based on lack of understanding?

When we say many Brexiters don't understand issues we get shouted down and called names......

mummmy2017 · 01/02/2018 18:11

www.theguardian.com/money/2006/apr/19/publicfinances.politics

NHS in Trouble 2006. OH look Who was PM.

No one can fix it, as it's so expensive, but it's still one heck of a lot better than a lot of other countries.

Justanotherlurker · 01/02/2018 18:14

@mummmy2017

You are not towing the party line, that can be ignored as not true socialism labour