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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to ask why you for Brexit?

604 replies

BillySmut56 · 30/01/2018 12:01

I'm politically neautral on Brexit, it's a complicated issue, but I'm interested in the consequences that are coming out now. If you voted for Brexit, what were your reasons?

OP posts:
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 31/01/2018 10:13

why is one side patronising, sarcastic and insulting to the other

No they wouldnt

They would say 'why are both sides patronising etc'

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 31/01/2018 10:14

Neither 'side' covers themselves in glory on these threads

FlyTipper · 31/01/2018 10:24

I'm disappointed at how neither side have moved on from the referendum. Both sides pour recrimination on the other, the same arguments and slogans are pulled out of the bag. Nothing has moved on. No one is grappling with issues like how the fuck do we sort out NI, how the fuck do we go about reorienting our economy to the world, how the fuck is the UK going to remain in close alignment with the EU and diverge to take advantage of increased autonomy of Brexit. The debate is still in a black hole and until politicians and pundits start to talk about this, no one is waking up to smell the coffee.

user1495390685 · 31/01/2018 10:32

Juncker is an alcoholic, who behaves like a clown at official gatherings. He is failed former head of state who's lucked out getting this job! Who elected him?

Quite correct: standing bemused is all that the non-elected EU representatives ever seem to do.

If we don't like something about our government, we can vote them out at the next election. There is no comparable procedure in the EU, where people in power are appointed. Our elected MEPs do not have any decision-making power, it's non-elected European Council. I have a big problem with that. No wonder we have phrases like the EU gravy train and jobs for life.

It's like it or leave it.

user1495390685 · 31/01/2018 10:35

I don't mean to sound rabid -- running to a meeting. But feeling very passionate about being rejected by the EU.

Subtleconstraints · 31/01/2018 10:44

But it's the other way around user1495390685 we are rejecting them!

And I am equally passionate about staying!

European laws are approved by the 28 elected heads of government, meeting as the European Council, and reviewed by the European Parliament. We, the citizens of member states, elect members of the European Parliament. They are not imposed upon us!

Moussemoose · 31/01/2018 11:09

@user1495390685 we have something exactly like the Commission: the civil service. Remember Yes Minister how the civil servants ran the country?

An exact and direct comparison.

The council is made up of the elected representatives of each country.

LaurieMarlow · 31/01/2018 11:26

I understand Theresa May has said there will not be a hard border between Republic of Ireland and NI which I'm sure is what both sides wanted to hear but I wonder if that may be an issue that will need to be reconsidered in the future, I've no idea how potential mass migration would be dealt with through that border. It's a powder keg waiting to be lit to be honest

Sorry, I didn't manage to come back to this thread for a long time, but just to pick up on this point.

This is not an issue that can be reconsidered. The UK have committed on no hard border for NI and that's because of the serious concerns of NI nationalists, the ROI government and the terms of the good Friday agreement. The EU will absolutely hold them to this.

This will of course make it difficult to police borders from an immigration standpoint. But the NI border is not a bolt from the blue, it was always going to be a problem. Yet there was virtually no discussion of it prior to the referendum.

makeourfuture · 31/01/2018 11:48

I voted leave because the Uk legal system in not compatable with what I consider to be the inferior civil law system that opetates through much of the EU

Well they were doing law while we were over here digging around in the mud with twigs.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 31/01/2018 12:00

Well they were doing law while we were over here digging around in the mud with twigs.

Incorrect. Some Greeks and Italians did. But most of Europe gained a codified legal system when they were colonised by the Romans. Including Germany. So in that way the development of law in most of Europe was very similar to our own.

Moussemoose · 31/01/2018 12:05

I think the point being made was that law came with the Pax Romana.

Generally, a dislike of the civil system used in Europe is actually one of the reasonable arguments for Brexit. I think it is an extreme reaction, baby bath water etc but at least it has a basis in reason. It is not like the "undemocratic" nonsense, or the "sovereignty" stupidity.

LondonMum8 · 31/01/2018 12:25

To play a devil's advocate a bit: do most countries in Europe have a written constitution by any chance? What's our view of things like Henry VIII powers? Are they representative of a modern legal system?

Moussemoose · 31/01/2018 12:39

As a point of interest the EU does not have a formal written constitution because it is not a nation state. Just to clarify for those who suggest it is.

LondonMum8 · 31/01/2018 14:18

Of course not, most member states do have written constitutions though. Fair enough, it's.2018 after all.

Moussemoose · 31/01/2018 14:55

UK the only member of the EU that does not have a written constitution.

MongerTruffle · 31/01/2018 16:58

Who elected him?
The European Parliament. If you are a British (or other EU) citizen, then you had the right to vote in the last European Parliament elections in 2014.

Julie8008 · 31/01/2018 18:15

European laws are approved by the 28 elected heads of government, meeting as the European Council, and reviewed by the European Parliament. We, the citizens of member states, elect members of the European Parliament. They are not imposed upon us!

All our previous PMs have been complicit in imposing the EU will upon us without our consent. No matter who we subsequently elected as PM or who the UK voted for, we had no democratic ability to change anything. So the EU is in essence an undemocratic dictatorship and the only way to regain our democracy is to reform the EU (which it refuses to do) or to leave.

The French president recently admitted that if they had a referendum in France they would vote to leave the EU, so he wasn't going to give them a vote. That is a perfect example of a dictatorship.

So lets grab Brexit and run, keep running until we have escaped and then run some more.

Moussemoose · 31/01/2018 18:31

@Julie8008

Let me get this straight. Our elected governments agree to laws that are ratified by the elected EU parliament and you don't think this is democratic?

Our PM who governs through a sovereign parliament agrees to laws that are ratified by the UK parliament and you think EU decisions have been imposed "without our consent"?

You say not matter "who we elect as PM".

Where to start. We are a representative democracy all the decisions have been made by our democratic institutions - it is an entirely democratic process. To insist otherwise is quite simply wrong.

We do not elect a PM in this country. We elect individual MPs.

Referenda are occasionally used in the UK but they are the exception unlike in direct democracies. We are not and never have been a direct democracy.

Your assertions that the EU is undemocratic are demonstrably wrong. You do the leave cause no favours by making incorrect assertions.

LondonMum8 · 31/01/2018 18:48

Run where @Julie8008? To the ground maybe...

Peregrina · 31/01/2018 18:55

If this country goes to war I want that and all decisions made by the UK Government, not the EU.

So how do you feel about our Government joining in whichever war the Americans chose to pursue? Who do you think was making the military decisions in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Julie8008 · 31/01/2018 19:00

Let me get this straight. Our elected governments agree to laws that are ratified by the elected EU parliament and you don't think this is democratic?

If the people of the UK have no democratic way to change any/all the laws in its own country then the body forcing those laws upon us is not democratic. If the EU pass a law, how do the UK citizens get to have a say on that law? When are they EVER allowed to get rid of it, or change it? There is a veneer of democracy but not any substance, the EU says NO.

UK voters elect MPs, who form a government, if they pass laws we dont want we can vote in a new party who will change those laws. The voters of the UK cannot do that with the EU because it is not democratic.

Even at show trials people can be represented and people can call them democratic. That does not make them fair or democratic.

Moussemoose · 31/01/2018 19:02

If this country goes to war I want that and all decisions made by the UK Government, not the EU

Have you heard of NATO?

Peregrina · 31/01/2018 19:03

I voted leave because the Uk legal system

We don't have a UK wide legal system. I gather that the Scottish system has some similarities to the Dutch system but am happy to be corrected on that.

As for this argument about making our own laws - some EU laws which have come into being were promoted by the UK, most others, something like 93%, have been passed by the UK. Some laws, supposedly the fault of the EU come from elsewhere - like the famous bendy bananas.

However in some cases, the UK has not chosen to make representations when it could have done. My brother can give chapter and verse on one to do with the bus industry. Industry spokespeople pressed for amendments, our government couldn't be bothered. It's so nice for them to be a bunch of lazy arses, fail to do their jobs, and then blame the EU.

As to our fisheries policies - need I remind anyone of the MEP who represented the UK on the fisheries committee, but only attended 1 meeting out of a potential 42?

Julie8008 · 31/01/2018 19:06

Who do you think was making the military decisions in Iraq and Afghanistan?

There is a difference between agreeing to follow a decision and being forced to follow a decision. America could not and did not force us to do what they decided.

The EU might decide on certain rule for animal welfare, we might choose to follow it so we can sell into the EU. But we should not be forced to follow those decisions for selling outside the EU.