Why do people think the government is some form of parent?

[soddingsoda]

I've spent a lot of time in the US, i'm British but have a fair amount of family in the US.

While there's obviously huge social issues in the US, and I feel fortunate to be British I'm just not a fan of the British mentality. Someone said something the other day and it hit the nail on the head: If an American employee sees his boss turn up in a Mercedes he'll be envious and it will inspire him. The same situation happens in the UK the employee would be spiteful and call it unfair.

I have a second job working behind a bar once a week. Quite often when punters have had a drink they love to rant about the system. One woman 'debating' with the others then pointed to me. Apparently if there wasn't any foreigners over here I would be able to a council house. She seemed pretty stumped when I told her that it wasn't the governments responsibility to house me, I'm healthy, young, able to work and choose to live at home so I can save for a deposit and go travelling and spent a shit ton on starbucks.

Someone also had a conversation that she's had tooth ache for over a year as she needs a filling. She feels that she shouldn't have to pay for it as she pays taxes. I really wanted to point out that if she wasn't down the pub every week paying £3.50 a pint, she could easily pay for that filling within a month.

It's just really starting to grate on me, we live in such a privileged society where we get a free education, everyone has access to a fairly good health service and we have so many opportunities. I just want to give a good shake to some people and tell them to take responsibilities for their own lives as they're adults and that's what adults are meant to do.

If you think that your job is hard just try going to medical school for five years at great cost and then slacking away for the NHS for 10-20 until you finally get a well paid job.

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play

I also don’t agree that Americans are generally more concerned about the individual whereas Britons are concerned about the collective. Certainly the reach of the state is smaller in the US, but if anything I think it reflects the fact that so many of the “gaps” are filled by people and local communities, and not social services or government agencies. So rather than waiting for “the council” to do something, it’s seeing the community itself as the council. We are the people and we get things done.

A friend of mine is dealing with a recurrence of cancer and is prepping for a bone marrow transplant. The support from the community has been nothing short of astounding. Meal trains stretching months into the future; people setting up carpools to make sure the kids will be taken to their activities; grocery shopping and snow shoveling all organized. Not religious people, but people living among people who care. It really is just what you do here. Same as when you move house - we were knee deep in apple pie and lasagne within hours of the moving truck leaving

Frankly, instead of Britons sneering at the weaknesses American system (which are many) they could really stand to learn a few things about how people come together when “the council” doesn’t.

@EggsonHeads, uh, what?

If minimum wage work was just as hard as well paid jobs then no one would do it.
If you think a bit, I'm sure you can come up with reasons why people do NMW jobs that are not 'because they are easier than well paid jobs'.

It's quite easy in comparison in that you can just walk into it and the only risk you carry is loosing your job if you perform poorly.
That's a very big risk. Especially when you consider that the lower your pay, the less likely you are to have a savings cushion to tide you over until a benefits claim is in place or another job found.

You can't say the same for well paid work.
Well, yes, I can. It is pretty much the same, except that you may, if your job was well paid, have built up savings so that you have some cushion to help you get through the immediate period after your job loss.

If you think that your job is hard just try going to medical school for five years at great cost and then slacking away for the NHS for 10-20 until you finally get a well paid job
My job is quite hard- I'm a social worker in mental health. I don't know if it's well paid. It's about the average UK wage. Compared to NMW jobs it's very well paid, compared to some roles, it isn't. You're talking here specifically about doctors- the BMA tells me that junior doctors in FY1 are paid £26,614, in FY2 £30,805. How, then, does it take 10-20 years of work to earn a good wage? Are you one of those people who thinks a good wage is something in the £80k region?

I recognise exactly what you are saying op. I think sometimes it’s only when you live in a different culture/country that you really learn about your own culture/country.

OP I definitely agree with you. Neither country is perfect but here in the USA people are more focused, and willing to work. They want to be successful.

The second part of the American dream is people want to be left alone to get on with there lives how they want to live. They want Freedom.

For instance many Americans are pro drug legalization. Because if someone wants to do drugs then fine it’s there life, if they OD and die that’s there choice.

OP your Mercedes example is very true, an American would say we should all be rich and succeed. A Brit would say we should all be equally poor.

I should be able to enjoy the same standard of living as someone who works/worked harder than me.

Nope, everyone is entitled to a equal start in life, Not a equal result.

When comparing the US to the UK people tend to forget the MASSIVE difference in land mass and population. In 2016 the US populations was est. 323.1m, UK was 65.64m.

When your rent alone for you’re 2 bed flat is more than your full time monthly salary it’s hard not to feel a sense of injustice. I don’t want a Mercedes, just enough to live on would do me fine. Not everyone has the option of staying with parents.

I’m currently at uni so I will hopefully be in my bosses position one day, but that isn’t an option for everyone for lots of reasons.

If minimum wage work was just as hard as well paid jobs then no one would do it

Which is why there’s a huge shortage of carers in the UK. Do you think care work is easy?

There is terrible poverty in the US. Millions and millions.

When comparing the US to the UK people tend to forget the MASSIVE difference in land mass and population. In 2016 the US populations was est. 323.1m, UK was 65.64m.

Very true the US is comparable in size and population to Europe. With the same range of cultures too. When debating issues it would probably be better to use European figures for poverty, crime etc.

thank youboo for pointing out the population difference/
also there are many programs in the states to help people.
some just dont use them/some dont even know about them
dh was disabled in his early 50s.i spent 20 years as his carer(rock on caregivers)he needed to be flown to a hospital that specializes in brain injuries/he needed meds that cost more than my house and later meds to maintain his health.after a 4 yr battle( because the rules are strict and try to avoid awarding this kind of aid to those who dont need it)he recieved a monthly disability payment.we could have had free caregivers but i was healthy and could do it myself.
our car died(beyond repair)someone we didnt know found out and got together with some other working class mechanics and put together a car for us.
as he was in the hospital for 2 months and i was traveling when i could 150 miles to see him.there was no income.people i didnt know knocked on my door and left boxes of food/envelopes with 10-100 dollars in them.offered rides, pet care, lawn mowing etc.
he was a vietnam vet and we found out that he was eligible for a pension to top off his disability to a living "wage"
most of our med bills were paid by medicare or medicaid took up the slack,
we have a 2br 1 bth house with a fairly low mortgage because we overpaid the principle when we could sometimes only 10$ but i have a mortgage thats very low compared to others.
dh was barely able to walk couldnt remember what he had for lunch but a small corner of his brain could use a computer/not surfing and fucking off/he wrote programs/he created programs for searching for missing people and found many working with law enforcemnet all over the country.
oh and while he was doing that he volunteered to rebuild/save old throw away computers for those who could not afford them.he also set up a community library with 10 of these pcs for public ,free use.
i worked or volunteered at human and animal shelters when i had
the time.we have a network of people who when someone is in need we try to help.example>-young mom abandoned with a 3tr old .spouse took everything.found her a cheap place to live and gathered furniture for the house,all she wanted was a table and chairs so she could have meals with her daughter and a bed for the girl/we managed to furnish most of the apartment for her.
another case when dh was still healthy ,we distributed extra food from grocery stores to food banks.we usually dropped off and went on.this one day we stayed to help .there was a massive amount of meat,chicken and dairy to get in the fridges and freezers .some of the recipients of the food were helping as well.when i put together a weekly grocery bundle for a lady she cried and i ask what was wrong.she said(holding up a pack of hot dogs) my babys havent had meat in 2 weeks.
to qualify for food stamps or welfare(cash-housing) you have to work if you are healthy.requiered to fill out applications on a monthly basis and if you refuse a job offer lose your benefits.
parents with children over the age of four are required to work.any children born after initial reciept of benefits are not covered(health and food yes but no extra cash)so having babys for more bennys doesnt work.
and lastly because of some house repairs and secondary medical troubles that we tried to pay ourselves,when he died i was left 15k in debt.
debt collectors cant take my house since it isnt a mcmansion,theres also a law that low income seniors disabled vets and familys of vets do not have to pay old debts,(credit card,medical etc) it is a little known law so few use it .does destroy your credit rating but dont care..
my health has deteriorated from injuries and being a 24/7 caregiver/so the veterans admin gives me a pension.its not alot but i can get by on it.
the us has many poblems but there are many solutions and as some have said here we really do try to help each other.

Interesting, winglesspegasus. Hope you are doing ok.

Actually, had a bit of Judge Judy marathon the other day (dd was ill... that's my excuse!) and just from that you can see that there are people in the US who are just as much "I'll sit on my backside" as some people in the UK.

I suppose it's a mindset and people are influenced by those around them, not just in terms of money. Where I live I swear I could be dead for years before a neighbour would notice. When sweeping up his leaves the man next door practically got out a ruler to make sure he didn't sweep a single leaf from my side of the path (in spite of dh being unable to walk). It was almost comical to watch his desperation not to do us a favour.

A friend of mine is dealing with a recurrence of cancer and is prepping for a bone marrow transplant. The support from the community has been nothing short of astounding ... Not religious people, but people living among people who care. It really is just what you do here

I believe you ... I've seen it for myself countless times and think it's wonderful

While accepting that some prefer everything to be covered by the state, and that it's unacceptable for the poor to be automatically damned as lazy, for me the problem is that our systems can't - or perhaps don't want - to differentiate between those in genuine need and others who are, indeed, downright idle and entitled

The US systems are far from perfect of course, but I've often noticed that community based projects seem better able to make this distinction than massive bureaucracies

Bullshit. It's a blatant myth that 'hard work' is all you need. Being white, preferably male, with comfortably-off parents who also care about you and are not abusive, going to a school that isn't collapsing from lack of funding, having enough food and knowing the roof over your head is secure - all those things put you into a much better position to make a good life for yourself than if you are missing some or all of them.
There are people working two or even three low-paid jobs just to survive, these people are never going to be wealthy or even comfortable. Because the economy has been restructured over the last 40 years or so to make it almost impossible for people from poor backgrounds to succeed. Most of the shitty, low-paid, low-status jobs offer no opportunity at all for advancement (there were times when you started off making the tea and sweeping the floor, but then you progressed, step by step.) There are too many agencies dealing with subcontracted jobs: the agency takes a cut so the pay the person doing the work gets is lower, and the agency considers all its staff expendable, interchangeable muppets.

The government should look after citizens. There should be an investment in council housing, renationalisation of transport (and healthcare, before it's too late) and universal basic income. This should be paid for by raising the top rate of income tax and enforcing the collection of corporation tax. All these CEOs hoarding billions offshore have not 'worked' for that money. They don't work several million times harder than their employees. Hoarded money is extremely damaging to the economy - if they spent it (even on diamond-studded helicopters) then it would be back in circulation.

Bravo, SGB! Well said.

Sadly I think the routes by which people can "rise up" are being closed off.

Look at acting. Julie Walters said she probably wouldn't have made it now. Many of the top of their game actors were at eton or other public school (redmayne, Dominic west, hiddlestone)

Perhaps because the UK and those that have the privileges/wealth that they do, got there on the backs of the Working class/cannon/factory fodder. (I acknowledge the Slaves/stealing the wealth from other countries) The land that was once owned by the lower classes was taken off them and rented back to them. we've been fucked over again and again.

There has been a system built up after each war to keep the population healthy enough to serve those at the top and that has taken us to today. As said you've got to understand our history and Welfare model.

Whereas America was stolen from the Native Americans (of whom i'm descended, my family was put through a Holocaust). The casualties of the country as it stands wasn't the people who have the most privilege, that makes a massive difference. It's unbelievable that there were still race riots and ignored public lynchings in my lifetime.

We live with a level of protection and expectation in the UK. Reading the amount of children being murdered in the US by their adoptive Parents, is astounding to us, in the UK. So is how out of control the Police-force is, the amount of inexcusable deaths in custody etc . I don't think many would want parts of US mentality.

We are starting to see things happen in the UK, children being homeless etc that we used to hear about in the US and it isn't a route that we want to go down. Whereas from what I see, the will doesn't seem to be there in the US to remove poverty and create a more equal society.

There are a lot more rules/laws here in the UK that prevent individual growth, but then those laws also protect us, so we accept them but that also means that the systems that keep people poor are recognised and counteracted.

I can't imagine US citizens being impressed with a system that allowed a parent to work only 16h per week and be topped up with tax credits, especially if the child were aged 12+. Income support still being paid to parents of older children is another one. I know that we've seen the error of our ways now and that things are changing, but it's hard to believe that it was ever allowed. Not just because of the tax burden, but because it trapped people, many of whom are middle-aged now and having to scrabble around for a job or more hours. It kept people from lower socioeconomic groups down, in crappy part-time roles or complete welfare dependency, and did not disincentivise people from having large, unaffordable families.

Everything SGB said (🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻)

Plus this is total bullshit: The same situation happens in the UK the employee would be spiteful and call it unfair.

Where I think the OP has a point is more specifically related to self-reliance and the idea that it's up to the state/the council/ the NHS etc rather than the individual to take responsibility or show initiative to get things done. There is a lot of wanting services and so on for free, but not recognising that you can have all the services provided for you but that this has to be paid for by higher taxes for everyone (which is a reasonable stance- "i think the state should provide extra services and I'm willing to pay towards that")

By far the biggest culprits for that attitude are the corporations, the wealthy, the elite. They want a healthy workforce, employees educated to a certain standard, a transport network to ensure their business runs smoothly, police and security forces to protect their business from criminals and a justice system to ensure the laws that protect them are enforced, BUT they will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid paying for those services and even the labour that generates their income. They will even ask for government help when their own incompetence leads their business to fail! Far from being self reliant they are utterly dependent on other people and will shirk any and every responsibility that they are not forced to discharge.

YANBU. There’s a huge culture of entitlement, working the minimum you can get away with, underachieving, blaming everyone but yourself for how things have worked out for you and resenting others who made better choices and did well even to the point of acting like crabs in a barrel.

I have witnesssd this behaviour many times from people with a massive sense of entitlement who put barely anything in but want everything from the government to pay for them to stay at home with their kids long term to a house decorated to their standards to money to feed and clothe their whole family. There’s never any forward planning because the government will sort them out (I do not include the disabled in this). Then they resent foreigners because apparently they are being given free stuff so there’ll be less free stuff for them. These people are sometime generations deep in minimal or zero contributions.

However, you’ll be blasted on here because you’re not allowed to criticise the UK as apparently we’re the best at everything, superior to everyone and have nothing to learn from foreign countries. No country is perfect and we should be able to say what’s wrong here.

The reality of the aspirational pursuit of the American Dream is that America had an incredible disparity of wealth, far greater than the UK.
Plenty of winners, but at the cost of far more losers.

We all (nations) have our issues!

By far the biggest culprits for that attitude are the corporations, the wealthy, the elite. They want a healthy workforce, employees educated to a certain standard, a transport network to ensure their business runs smoothly, police and security forces to protect their business from criminals and a justice system to ensure the laws that protect them are enforced, BUT they will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid paying for those services and even the labour that generates their income. They will even ask for government help when their own incompetence leads their business to fail! Far from being self reliant they are utterly dependent on other people and will shirk any and every responsibility that they are not forced to discharge.

THIS! I can't imagine a greater example of entitlement than expecting to retain your bonuses when your business is having to be bailed out by government.

In my own job, I have sat through countless meetings hearing management explain otoh how we are struggling because of previous management and will almost certainly have to lay off staff (at a junior level, obviously), otoh how we must pay inflated salaries to retain the leadership of the current management.

Exactly the same arguments re high salaries to retain leadership were the ones being used of the previous management- the ones who are now to blame for everything going wrong.

Self reliant is not the word.

Communities dont pull together?

Umm Grenfell?

All these CEOs hoarding billions offshore have not 'worked' for that money. They don't work several million times harder than their employees
This!⬆️