Why do people think the government is some form of parent?

[soddingsoda]

I've spent a lot of time in the US, i'm British but have a fair amount of family in the US.

While there's obviously huge social issues in the US, and I feel fortunate to be British I'm just not a fan of the British mentality. Someone said something the other day and it hit the nail on the head: If an American employee sees his boss turn up in a Mercedes he'll be envious and it will inspire him. The same situation happens in the UK the employee would be spiteful and call it unfair.

I have a second job working behind a bar once a week. Quite often when punters have had a drink they love to rant about the system. One woman 'debating' with the others then pointed to me. Apparently if there wasn't any foreigners over here I would be able to a council house. She seemed pretty stumped when I told her that it wasn't the governments responsibility to house me, I'm healthy, young, able to work and choose to live at home so I can save for a deposit and go travelling and spent a shit ton on starbucks.

Someone also had a conversation that she's had tooth ache for over a year as she needs a filling. She feels that she shouldn't have to pay for it as she pays taxes. I really wanted to point out that if she wasn't down the pub every week paying £3.50 a pint, she could easily pay for that filling within a month.

It's just really starting to grate on me, we live in such a privileged society where we get a free education, everyone has access to a fairly good health service and we have so many opportunities. I just want to give a good shake to some people and tell them to take responsibilities for their own lives as they're adults and that's what adults are meant to do.

Lots of the people who complain will remember the introduction of National Insurance. It was sold to us as 'you pay us this small amount and get ALL this for free'. Then gradually very little is still included in this free amount. I'm young ish and I remember everyone being eligible for free dentistry and even now I think it's a con the amount they charge for just check ups and cleans etc.

I understand why people are upset, the publics contributions are not able to cover the cost of running an NHS for all. Those people in the pub will be angry that non working people / holiday maker/ etc get seen by a dr at no charge.

Money that was and still is being taken off everyone who works pays for the govt services. Why are we paying for other countries problems and debts (arguably lining politicians pockets as opposed to feeding their poorest). Nobody wants to see other countries poverty but we have poverty in this country too. Without the NHS goodness knows what will become of those who have nothing.

Its just never as simple as saying I'll live with my parents and save up...

What the fuck is wrong with being a carer??
If carers were not primarily women they wouldn't be paid less and undervalued. It's a very valuable job.
And as for the idea that young people in the UK have less work ethic. .well. it's a lot easier to have a great work ethic when you actually get financial reward. I worked in 2 countries in my 20s- both very free market places, and I made a lot of money in sales, among other things. I couldn't have even got the jobs I had in the UK (things are much more formalised and narrow here in terms of recruitment).
I was young, I had zero experience, I worked hard because the harder I worked the more cash I had. This is NOT the case in the UK. Commission is often capped, restaurants often keep tips (or people don't tip). There very little scope for bettering your financial circumstances here in the UK, and people give up trying eventually.

And I don't kid myself that part of the reason I did well overseas is that I was young and pretty, which helps enormously.
I'm sure it would be a different story now.
treaclesoda is bang on about night school too. I looked into doing professional course in the evenings at my local college. It was all pottery and basic computer skills; not useful for many.

Skowvegas I agree entirely. I don’t think I know a single able-bodied adult who does not volunteer or contribute to their community in some capacity, whether it’s coaching a child’s baseball team, cub scouts/Girl Scouts, meal prep in homeless shelters, etc.

I think a lot of this is because Americans are generally more religious and therefore do more things for the community and volunteering. Most of the volunteering for food banks etc. is done by churches in the UK and it seems to be a lot of older people.

We have a terrible work ethic in this country. If MN is a cross section of society it demonstrates may people end up in NMW jobs and stay there. There is no aspiration to do better. Time after time you read "DP and I are NMW jobs", or "I'm a carer".

This blows my mind. Everywhere I have ever worked people have been desperate to move up the ladder. They have lied, tricked people, stabbed colleagues in the back, taken credit for other people's work, sat at the office until 9pm just to make a point of being seen to work long hours. I've honestly never met a single person who is happy with the salary they earn (even the ones who earn a fortune), everyone wants to move on and earn more (and I include myself in that).

Wow. Well what do you think the government is then? A bunch of people to just take your money and drop bombs?

Yes, the core function of government is not much more than to defend the country and enforce rule of law. People on here are routinely outraged when government is not solving some problem or other, but where I grew up, no-one thought it was the governments job to prevent anyone dying of anything, in particular feeding people or providing medical care was not the governments responsibility. (There was no social security system at all.)

Education, healthcare and social security are not things that government have provided, for 99% of the history of government.

That's not to say I'm against a bigger state. On the whole I broadly support the reach of the state in the UK. People thinking "the council should sort it out" could be seen as a symptom of a country that is more organised/advanced than the alternative.

I think society has polarised in aspiration and contribution to society as well as in wealth.

DH and I are older than many on MN and live more comfortably now our children have left home but we, and most of our friends, help out family financially and with childcare, often do volunteer work and are still working. Parents we know locally often help with activities their children are involved in
By contrast, I work in a very deprived area not far away and people there, on the whole, expect more to be provided and help with less themselves.

We have friends in the USA, in the Bible Belt, and they tell us that fewer people are going to church even there and charities are taking over more although the charities are often Christian based

We used to have a fantastic work ethic in this country, then we had Thatcherism.

What I find refreshing is the willingness of people to get stuck in and get things done, without waiting for someone else to take care of it

This x 1000

It's also interesting that so many who cry "why don't they do something?" ignore the endless support which communities give to the disadvantaged, without necessarily expecting that "they" should do it instead ... a different approach, and one which we could learn a lot from

There is a very British thing of being suspicious of people doing nice things for others. A lot of people think that things always have to have strings attached. You see it a lot on mumsnet when people say things like 'my next door neighbour offered me a lift to the shop because it was pouring with rain, but I refused because she might expect me to give her a lift next time, and I don't like giving lifts'. When actually a lot of people are happy to offer a favour with no strings attached.

What the fuck is wrong with being a carer??

Damn straight.

"What the fuck is wrong with being a carer??"

I'd like an answer to that one too.

I'd rather have a health service and welfare state than charities and volunteers. I'd rather pay more taxes than pay health insurance premiums and know that there are millions out there who cannot afford to do so. I'd rather have some people seeing the state as a parent than a 'bootstraps' mentality which pushes the lie that if you work and work and work, you'll be fine and poverty is something that happens to those who don't try hard enough to avoid it.

We have a terrible work ethic in this country. If MN is a cross section of society it demonstrates may people end up in NMW jobs and stay there. There is no aspiration to do better. Time after time you read "DP and I are NMW jobs", or "I'm a carer".

List all the NMW jobs you know of which do not benefit society in any way.
What do you do that is more worthwhile than caring? Why do you think being a carer is not something to be celebrated? Why do you think so little of people needing care that you disparage those who provide it?
You complain that people have a terrible work ethic and use as an example those who work. I've done NMW jobs (and in the days before NMW, I've done those jobs for less than £2 an hour) and let me tell you, you work your arse off. Only a complete twat would think that because a job is poorly paid, the people undertaking it have no work ethic .

LifeBeginsAtGin Tue 30-Jan-18 08:59:29
"We have a terrible work ethic in this country. If MN is a cross section of society it demonstrates may people end up in NMW jobs and stay there. There is no aspiration to do better. Time after time you read "DP and I are NMW jobs", or "I'm a carer""

you fucking snob I hope you wont moan if you are left lying in your own excrement when you are old while your care worker goes off to better themselves.

Since we are on the subject attitudes like this are being explored along with a disability hate crime storyline in this weeks Silent Witness.

Yes, we should have some way of elevating the status and pay of carers and health-care workers, because we're going to need a darn sight more of them in years to come with an ageing population.

I don't think it's just Americans who are a bit surprised at the lack of gumption of a lot of British people. Most of my family live in Europe, and they can't believe how much we whinge and moan about things, especially getting stuff for nothing. Someone I know was going on about the flu, and said she hadn't had a flu jab as she was under 60 and didn't qualify for a free one. I said I had just gone into Boots and paid £12. She was astonished that I would pay. This is a woman who lives in a £1m house.

Oh good lord.

You need to go away and read some Marx.

HelenaDove will you be watching tonight? (Silent Witness). I'll catch up, if it's good and gritty like it used to be.

Carers should get more money, and bloody honours.

I have a flu jab and i go to Boots for mine State pension household but struggle to get an appointment at our Virgin Care surgery.

Yes Liney Brace yourself though and have some tissues to hand.

@sinceyouask it's not the same as slogging your way through three degrees at the risk of never getting paid anything or starting your own business at the risk of loosing your house. Hard work is prequisited by hours and hours of unpaid 'work' that is often so difficult that you can't even do it to begin with and have to learn a lot not to mention get over the notional hurdles of doing something that you may fail at with risk/debt looming over your head. If minimum wage work was just as hard as well paid jobs then no one would do it. It's quite easy in comparison in that you can just walk into it and the only risk you carry is loosing your job if you perform poorly. You can't say the same for well paid work. If you think that your job is hard just try going to medical school for five years at great cost and then slacking away for the NHS for 10-20 until you finally get a well paid job.

Eggson that post is ridiculous and insulting. Of course low paid work is hard My DM did 50 years in poultry factories and didnt retire until she was 79.

And without the hospital cleaners patients would be succumbing to all sorts of bugs you utter snob.

You really think you are better than everyone else.

And to say "the only risk is losing a job" fucking thick as shit as well.

If minimum wage work was just as hard as well paid jobs then no one would do it

Possibly one of the daftest things I've ever read on MN, and there's plenty of competition.

And what i meant by cognitive dissonance is Eggson moaning about social housing causing these "problems" and then another poster mentioning meal prep for the homeless.

Well you may have brains to pass all your qualifications but you are living proof that brains and common sense are two different things.

it's not the same as slogging your way through three degrees at the risk of never getting paid anything or starting your own business at the risk of loosing your house.

So if you slog your way through three degrees and then refuse to work in minimum wage job because it's beneath you, does that mean you have a better work ethic than someone who works in a minimum wage job?

What you're describing isn't work ethic, it's attitude to risk. And a lot of people who are more willing to take a risk are people who can afford to take a risk.

Where I think the OP has a point is more specifically related to self-reliance and the idea that it's up to the state/the council/ the NHS etc rather than the individual to take responsibility or show initiative to get things done. There is a lot of wanting services and so on for free, but not recognising that you can have all the services provided for you but that this has to be paid for by higher taxes for everyone (which is a reasonable stance- "i think the state should provide extra services and I'm willing to pay towards that")

I do think in the UK there is a lot of reliance on "someone else" to do x or provide y or tell them how to do z, when individuals are perfectly capable of doing so themselves or finding things out for themselves. I have worked in other countries and there are issues wherever you go. In the UK we have become very reliant on the state and it would be better if that were not the case, IMHO. That's not to say I think we should abolish the welfare state or the NHS or state education etc- I think that would be a deeply regressive step. But I really wish people would be a bit more self-reliant.