Why do people think the government is some form of parent?

[soddingsoda]

I've spent a lot of time in the US, i'm British but have a fair amount of family in the US.

While there's obviously huge social issues in the US, and I feel fortunate to be British I'm just not a fan of the British mentality. Someone said something the other day and it hit the nail on the head: If an American employee sees his boss turn up in a Mercedes he'll be envious and it will inspire him. The same situation happens in the UK the employee would be spiteful and call it unfair.

I have a second job working behind a bar once a week. Quite often when punters have had a drink they love to rant about the system. One woman 'debating' with the others then pointed to me. Apparently if there wasn't any foreigners over here I would be able to a council house. She seemed pretty stumped when I told her that it wasn't the governments responsibility to house me, I'm healthy, young, able to work and choose to live at home so I can save for a deposit and go travelling and spent a shit ton on starbucks.

Someone also had a conversation that she's had tooth ache for over a year as she needs a filling. She feels that she shouldn't have to pay for it as she pays taxes. I really wanted to point out that if she wasn't down the pub every week paying £3.50 a pint, she could easily pay for that filling within a month.

It's just really starting to grate on me, we live in such a privileged society where we get a free education, everyone has access to a fairly good health service and we have so many opportunities. I just want to give a good shake to some people and tell them to take responsibilities for their own lives as they're adults and that's what adults are meant to do.

I would like less disparity and agree that the US isn't perfect but there are far too many people in the UK who think they are entitled to things and should not have to work or pay for them. DB lives in Singapore and it is so noticeable here (deprived area in the North) after I have been there for a while where people work far harder to succeed

Hello OP, I massively recognise this attitude from people. Mostly from peers who are not on the housing ladder due to their own life choices (I.e spending inheritance money on travelling, or having a large family with only 1 person working at start of career on min wage and no desire to train or further education). I am not judging people for their choices, we can’t all be the same, but those of us with our own home have delayed travelling and families to prioritise buying a house. That’s not to say we are right and they were wrong. But It does seem odd that the non house owners are so bitter and angry but not enough to work hard to change it. Where as the people I know who bought a house, don’t seem as angry about the fact that the trip round the world might have to wait a bit longer or that starting a family might have to wait for a bit. I know you can’t plan for everything so I am talking about people who made these lifestyle choices. Not those who accidentally got pregnant for example.

I am NOT a millennial by the way (thinking about the Starbucks/Costa thread) I am a generation older.

The US govt is voting tonight to ban abortion after 20 weeks, no exceptions for medical problems. Now who wants a nanny state?

But they won't get enough votes to pass it (and they know it). And even if they did, it would never actually be enacted because it's unconstitutional.

I recognise exactly what you are saying op. I think sometimes it’s only when you live in a different culture/country that you really learn about your own culture/country.

Pointy - you’re missing the point. OP didn’t say the US was a utopia. She said that people, in general, have more ambition and a drive to better themselves.

There are parts of UK society where that attitude just doesn’t exist, sadly.

Based on the number of years I have spent living in the US, I agree with what she says. Due to the lack of a nanny state that provides benefits, people don’t come to rely on them and instead work!

None of what the OP said negates the fact that many aspects of life in the US are undesirable - healthcare that costs, racism, Trump - but I’d say her point re a work ethic and drive absolutely stands.

Completely agree with maxthemartian. Americans are fully signed up to a neoliberal society and think that putting in the hours will ensure their success. Of course, it doesn't work like that. In reality they'll be stuck in low paying jobs for the rest of their lives, fuelling the system and basically being exploited by their Mercedes driving boss. But hey ho, if they're happy whilst being so deluded.

I recognise exactly what you are saying op. I think sometimes it’s only when you live in a different culture/country that you really learn about your own culture/country.

I do too. No one's saying the US is wonderful, just that it's different.

It reminds me of that thread on MN recently where someone in the US said her husband took a chainsaw to all the trees across the roads after some huge storms recently, and a UK MNer couldn't understand why he hadn't just waited for the council to do it.

Americans are fully signed up to a neoliberal society and think that putting in the hours will ensure their success. Of course, it doesn't work like that. In reality they'll be stuck in low paying jobs for the rest of their lives, fuelling the system and basically being exploited by their Mercedes driving boss. But hey ho, if they're happy whilst being so deluded.

Alcoholics - not in my experience! The majority of our friends live in multi million dollar homes. They’ve worked hard, delayed having families and are now reaping the benefits of that hard work. Many have their own companies, are extremely entrepreneurial and have various business ventures on the go at any one time. The banks love them and are happy to lend.

DH broke his finger a few years ago in an unnecessarily complicated way. When googling this I found multiple websites where people in the US advocated treating your own broken finger and giving instructions on how to do so, and prior discussing this as they couldn't afford to see a doctor. If we were in the US and tried that DH would have lost his finger. But we're in the UK so he had an operation performed by the NHS, free at the point of delivery, and never had to even consider whether we could afford it.

Nobody should be made bankrupt and lose everything because they became ill and couldn't pay.

And health outcomes in the US for poor people are nothing to be proud of.

Wow. Well what do you think the government is then? A bunch of people to just take your money and drop bombs?
I certainly believe the government are there to work for the people of Britain to make sure no one is left too far behind to suffer.

The US has appalling standards of welfare for people struggling. I was reading about its maternal mortality rates the other day and it was disgusting. Yes its fine if you have money but if you dont you are basically left to rot. The gap between the rich and poor is massive and the middle class pretty none existent.

The idea that people are going to be inspired to work harder by the wealth of others is ridiculous. Extreme wealth is not made by working hard in the most part... its made by already having money or land in your family.

TBH id rather no disabled people starved to death and no one went bankrupt treating their childrens cancer then have a very slim chance of one day maybe owning a mercedes.

I have to say I have also never seen this envy you allude to in your OP. Most people know that in general, people who have that kind of money also work insane hours and lose some of the other things that matter in life. I think the divide between the top earners and the lowest earners in companies should be narrower, because some people do earn ludicrous salaries, but they're a small minority. I feel no envy for my higher earning management because I see what they have to do for that money - long hours, being on call, endless meetings. If I were to try to move higher up the career ladder, I would lose all the things I love about my job - so I feel no envy because work-life balance matters to me.

I have to say that I think there is some merit in what OP says, even if I don't agree with everything she says.

There IS a lot of reliance on the state in this country. There is a significant minority who feel the state "owes" them and a bit more self-reliance would be beneficial (I'm not talking about people with disabilities or ill health which means they do have to rely on the state). And how often do we hear "what are the government going to do about it?" when something goes wrong. Sometimes it is appropriate for the government to "do something about it", but sometimes it is nothing to do with state. Then we moan the government is too interfering, complain about the nanny-state and so on.

In the US aspiration and wealth aren't always seen quite the same as here. Here, in some quarters there is the politics of envy- everyone who has more than them is a "fat cat" who "doesn't deserve it". That's not to say I don't think there are issues with wealth distribution and the very wealthy not necessarily playing by the rules. The same happens in the US, but there seems to be less "heat" over it. And a greater recognition of working.

That said, there really are many problems with the US system. I'm not convinced it's much better, it's just some of the issues are different. And the two populations' belief in what the solution might be to similar problems differs a little. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. I think we could learn something from them and they could also learn something from us.

@Sprinklestar and what percentage of the US live like that, and what percentage are dirt poor and have no chance of working their way up to million dollar house. It's not possible here or in the US for everyone to reach that level of wealth no matter how driven, aspirational and talented they are.

I think we could learn something from them and they could also learn something from us.

Absolutely!

People are very defensive though - it's hard to read/hear criticism. As we're seeing on here...

Mirime - that’s as may be but the healthcare in the US, if you can afford it, is many times better than the NHS. Much pioneering research, including that which is shared worldwide, takes place here. I’ll likely out myself here but DH has been suffering from cancer and a number of complex related conditions over the last couple of years. He would not be alive had he been treated by the NHS. We have the cell phone numbers of all his Drs, world specialists in his conditions to contact as we need to, and three excellent hospitals to choose from locally. We always get same day or next day appointments. The NHS is certainly not the great utopia people like to claim it is.

this is definitely a British mentality. I blame the proliferation of social housing across all socioeconomic areas (various studies have shown that it's common for people to feel spiteful, wronged, misbehave etc. When they see others getting more than they do), the great welfare myth (in other countries people just wouldn't believe that a healthcare system as shit as the NHS would be permitted to limp on, here people seem to have an emotional attatchment to it) and geniunine unfairness in a society where social mobility is genuinely difficult to achieve (in contrast to britain's colonial cousins for example). When I moved here I was actually quite shocked by how entitled and downright stupid a lot of Brits were. Thankfully Britain has a wonderfully large population and I can stick to mostly mixing with lovely, liberal minded, economically literate, mostly foreign/first generation British people who don't display this weird intellectual flaw.

@Mirime - re your second point, agreed, there are millions who live in poverty in the US. But there is a huge drive for people to better themselves, loans for college courses, a belief that you can do well if you want to. People are less resigned to their ‘fate’, maybe?

The people with the multi million dollar houses are not anything special, is what I’m trying to say. People who went to school and college and did well, but nothing more than DH or I did in the UK and nothing more than many of the well paid MNers I imagine are reading this did. Their hard work has very much paid off.

It always amazes me why people who seem to hate the UK and despise the populace want to live and stay here. It must be very trying for you to have to put up with such an unpleasant life compared to what you would prefer.

but what if you cant afford it?

Im doing okay personally. Ive had some of my maternity care privately here. My husband has a decent job and my father did...... which is the main point to make..... my family has had money and theyve been a stable family whove done a decent job in raising me.

Not everyone has that. Should they then suffer because they are starting out with much less than others?

I am some sort of amazing person who deserves my success and the quality of medical care i can access? Why do i deserve to have a better quality of life than someone who was born into more difficult circumstances?

People should not have to pay for decent medical care and decent education. No one deserves these things more than someone else.

Its such a myth that its solely down to hard work that people are successful and its also a myth that some people have innate ambition and drive. It totally depends on the circumstances you were born into. There might be the odd story of someone overcoming all odds but that is not the norm.

Im proud of any attempt our governments make to level the playing field so that there is equal opportunities for people. And equal opportunities means giving a leg up to people in difficult circumstances.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/26/i-invented-the-loom-band-experience

For anyone who’s doubting the American dream exists...

TBH id rather no disabled people starved to death and no one went bankrupt treating their childrens cancer then have a very slim chance of one day maybe owning a mercedes.

^^This. Shame our own govt don't agree about the first part (or the second, if they get their own way).

No system is perfect but it strikes me that the US has got its citizens by the short and curlies - they think the American dream is true and that if they work hard enough they will get the Mercedes, and this makes them happy! But they won't and living a life where money is king and aspiration revolves around consumerism is depressing

Hahaha! Yes...life in the US in all fine and dandy when you are young, pretty and able bodied. I tell you what, you go back there when you are ill, or old and fat, and see how easy you find it to "rise".
Yes, humans complain about stuff when they shouldn't. It's what we do. But that doesn't mean we are not well aware of what we have (NHS) and what we don't want (to live in a trailer and lose limbs because of diabetes because we can't pay for medical care).
I don't expect government to look after my every whim, but I do see it as being there to serve the majority. My ancestors fought long and hard to endure things like a day off a week, healthcare, sanitation, fair pay (still waiting on that one)

Crack a history book and learn that things in the Uk were very bad for most people most of the time. One of the main principles of the post war state was that the majority don't die of preventable, or from industrial accidents, or starvation.

We still don't have equality, but it's a damn sight better than most places and I think most people here realise that actually.

@mirime I bet people were also saying that in the 1800s about running water and inside toilets. People both in the U.K. And the us are incredibly wealthy and, if they continue to support are freedom of markets, business, intellectual property and, labour then there is no reason why they cannot become richer as the economy grows. Wealth is not finite.

Eggs I am not British.

And what is wrong with the provision of a decent and affordable house for everyone irrespective of means? I don't mean a palace, but something basic that fits everyone, is warm and dry and easy to run? I see that as the hallmark of a civilisation. There is no pride to be taken in a society where some people have to live in mould-covered hovels and where wealthy landlords get away with charging the earth for said hovels. Unfettered capitalism leads to exploitation - there needs to be a brake on it somewhere.

Can we have some links for your 'various studies' please?

The UK has the worst wealth inequality in Europe and the US is considerably worse than the UK.

The USA is great if you're wealthy, but a dreadful place to be poor. And if you're born poor, you already have a lot of ground to catch up on your peers.