AIBU to be disappointed that a man made this assumption?

[Soullesstrader]

I work on a freelance basis in an industry that is generally forward thinking and innovative, but still largely male dominated at the senior level. I am at a senior level myself.

Today I was talking to a man at work - similar age, similar experience (I know his, he doesn't know mine), similar level. We were discussing what my next role might be and he started talking to me about how to find roles at a much more junior level - we're talking about jobs paying half my salary and requiring a quarter of my experience.

I can only assume that based on my gender and the fact I'm a single mother (he does know this about me as I told him) he had assumed he was far more senior than me.

AIBU to be shocked and really disappointed?

And no, I didn't say anything. I just smiled politely in the knowledge he will soon discover his mistake.

There's a great piece on this called "Men Explain Things To Me" by Solnit - www.amazon.co.uk/Men-Explain-Things-Rebecca-Solnit/dp/1608463869?tag=mumsnetforum-21

It's funny, and it's exactly what that man just did, and will do again and again. The essay should be required reading in every secondary school.

You should ask him, so you will know. His answer might be interesting for you and him.
And you don't have to be snarky or anything. It can be a genuine question that can lead to an interesting conversation.

Quite depressing that typical assumptions made about a woman = woman should have handled it better.

Maybe he didn't make that comment because you are a woman, it was because he just thought you are better suited to a lower-level job? I think this is the real reason you didn't confront him, whether you realise that yourself or not. Making an assumption that his judgement is based solely on your gender is a lot easier to swallow than finding out it was actually based on your capability.

Maybe he didn't make that comment because you are a woman, it was because he just thought you are better suited to a lower-level job?

How do you think he evaluated it?

It wasn't an age thing. I look ok for my age but don't think I could pass for much less than 40.

Making an assumption that his judgement is based solely on your gender is a lot easier to swallow than finding out it was actually based on your capability.

Doesn’t take long for claws to come out when a woman dares to talk about her accomplishments.

ALWAYS call them out on the spot for that one.
Have a repertoire of lines ready for every eventuality.

I admit its one of the reasons I've let my hair go grey as it stops the old gits calling me "young lady"
And why I use my birth name at work - so that I can in all honesty say that I do not live with Mr Peace

and why if people give me any lip the phrase "I went to Uni when they still gave grants" comes in very useful
or "when I qualified as an ACCA, spreadsheets were still a novelty"

have the lines ready
DO NOT let the guys think they are better just because of age and gender

You didn't need to have a pithy comeback - all you needed to say was "Oh I'm not looking for a job in X, I'm looking for a position as a Y".
There are lots of possible things going on here. Maybe something you said earlier gave him the mistaken impression that you were looking for that kind of job. If you'd said something you'd have found out if he was a patronising sexist or not from his reaction. As it is, you are making just as bad an assumption about him as you think he made about you.

You're in a male dominated industry and he doesn't know your experience.

Don't think I'd have you pegged as Supreme Leader Snoke in the circumstances, either.

You should have corrected him at the time. Failing that, I concur with the suggestion to connect with them on LinkedIn.

I find it useful, when I get a bit stumped, to pause a bit to think about what I want to say, then clarify the situation.

We don't need one liners, but we should question when people make assumptions or don't want to listen. Definitely clarify what the situation is.

I think with the consultant medic being mistaken for a student... Would be fine (for me anyhow 😁😁), if I'd merely approached the patient and said hello...

If they thought I was a student after consultation... I would be worried, very worried!

I've had this before.

I'm a qualified accountant and work in London. I was speaking to a man, same age as me who works for a local firm and we were talking about the possibility of me working locally.

He suggested to me that I would want to apply to his firm as a secretary and try to move into the main area from there. I was gobsmacked, he surely would never have suggested that to a man.

Needless to say, I still work in London!

More recently, less dramatic but on the same lines of men making assumptions, I had a new sort of manager at work. He knew I worked part time and made cooing noises that his wife works part time too, how it is just a bit of pin money. I didn't correct him but have worked damn hard (as always) to prove that I am not there for just a bit of pin money. He now takes me seriously and I'm being promoted to the same grade as him but I really had to prove it & that took me a good 6 months. I swear men don't have to prove themselves in the way we (well I) have to.

I agree OP, the assumptions are very depresssing!

you have my sympathy OP. We've just had a new director start and the other day he asked me if I could get him some new business cards printed. He said it so cheerfully too: 'ah! Just the person! Would you mind getting me some new business cards?'

I have three degrees, two best selling books, a great career and let's just say that I'm not exactly a secretary.

Why do you immediately think it was because of your gender?

Er, because in people's experience, it often is.
I am a consultant surgeon. I have grey hair and have three male colleagues who are very similar ages to me. Two or three times a year, I still get "Oh, are you actually doing the operation?" My male colleagues don't.

OP I think I would have said something. I would have looked confused, because I probably would have been, and said I was looking for X position, not Y. But I agree that the onus should not be on the woman to handle this type of situation better, but on the man not to cause it in the first place.

Clearly there can be some variation between individuals, but OP says that they are similar age, experience & level. Presumably she was chatting to him as a peer. If I were talking to a colleague and they said something about career development, my first question would be to ask what they are interested in, rather than just to plough in with a list of suggestions. Just to offer up answers without knowing the situation properly shows a lack of listening skills and a desire to give out info more than respond carefully.

This response does tend to be gendered - in that there are many, many examples of men talking more than listening, trying to give solutions rather ask questions, assuming that they are more senior than their female counterparts etc.

And, the OP was there, so probably read the situation better than any of us can do from her comments. So, yeah, I'd think he was making assumptions that a woman is unlikely to be at the same level as him, rather than keeping an open mind and bothering to actually get the facts straight first.

What did you say yourvag

I hope you set him straight with a snappy retort like "Yeah, I'd maybe have looked at one of those roles in the past. Twenty years ago, before I got at job at the same status as you".

YADNBU to be disappointed. There is evidence that men consistently underrate their female peers, and consistently overrate their male peers - it's unconscious bias.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0148405

The point that the OP and others are making is that men never assume that a man is more junior - they either ask, or they assume they're at the same level. They only assume women are more junior and it is a very very rude assumption to make.

My DH's former boss (who isn't particularly young looking) when standing next to her much younger assistant is regularly assumed to be the assistant. You can guess what sex they are.

Stealth this is awful but I have to admit that I actually did what the OP did. I just smiled and said 'yeah...ok?'. My brain stalled with confusion and the bit that was still operating was thinking 'well he's new and maybe it's because he's seen me around and feels comfortable asking and he's probably not really asking me. He's probably asking me to put it across to the relevant person, blah blah etc. etc.' But even that is offensive! My brain basically made excuses for him in real time. Imagine this situation with the genders reversed. Wouldn't happen.

Honestly, I was so staggered, I just went into autopilot politeness, which only added to my anger when I started thinking again. Angry at myself, angry at him with his assumptions. Grrrrrrr

To the PP who suggested he maybe thought I wasn't suitable for a senior role - he doesn't know my capabilities to judge. He knows very little about me.

I would be amazed if he had the same conversation with a man my age.

In my industry there aren't that many women over 45. They just seem to disappear. There are lots in their twenties and thirties. It's not an environment where it's easy to manage work/life balance or return after children. There are almost no part time roles. This is part of the reason why I've ended up freelancing as have a lot of the other women I worked with earlier in my career.

Yep I'd be exactly the same. Anyway, why are you on mn? Don't you have business cards to order, girl? ;)

I've had similar @LeCroissant to do my role you have to (a have a degree (b have at least 5 years experience in an associated role, and currently no one in our team entered the role with less than 8 years experience. So at a minimum if you went to Uni at 18; if you were exceptionally lucky you could be in my role at 26/7.

When to a conference, offered to take the sandwich student, good opportunity to network. He was 20 looked around 17.

As it happens both our names are uni sex think Jo & Alex, My name badge had Senior Job title, his just had his name. Guess who got given the badge with Senior Job title on it?

As it happens I came to the role late after being a Nurse, I was a senior Nurse, with the uniform to match, but if there was a male student on the ward people who should know better would assume he was in charge.

You can twist it how you want; but it happens frequently.

You should have corrected him. I say this as a senior manager. You MUST correct this everytime otherwise it will eventually harm you by restricting your networking pool - at this level word gets around very fast.

Why do you immediately think it was because of your gender?

Er, because in people's experience, it often is.

^

I second that.