To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

Took the words right outta my mouth obmolov.

Life really is too short to endure this feeble, half arsed parenting.

All the evidence indicates that children like boundaries - they need them to feel safe.

These children lash out because they are scared by their own power.

Boundaries can be set and enforced with kindness - it is a fallacy to assume that discipline cannot be gentle.

The idea that a child rules the house and if they want to be cuddled all night it is cruel not to is clearly complete nonsense. All children are pat of a family and the lesson has to be learned that other folk in the family have needs and rights. It can be done gently and with intelligence.

part

A lot of what’s being discussed here is ‘permissive’ parenting.
You can definitely teach boundaries with gentle parenting style. My friends who embrace this style have the most polite, kind and contented kids I know, and they certainly have routine.
It’s just tgat gentle parenting encourages parents to reflect on why they do something (themselves) not ‘just because’. The routines they’ve established are child led but parent shaped. Ie no sleep training yet they still had a bedtime routine to develop sleep associations. They do ‘time ins’ rather than ‘time outs’ so it encourages the child to be emotionally intelligent and connect to the parent and the situation rather than sullen in a corner dealing with a punishment alone. Yet there are still consequences.
What you describe here sounds unhelpful for kids and parents alike and this kind of behaviour would certainly be addressed by my ‘gentle parenting’ friends. I know they wouldn’t want to be around it.

I think you need to find some new friends to hang out with - no way would I be tolerating that shite in my house either.

My own feelings about 'gentle parenting' aside, They can choose whatever parenting style they want - provided it isn't impacting negatively on other people, however when they are breaking your things and hurting your son it is most definitely having a negative impact on you and you are perfectly within your rights to put a stop to it in your own house.

The BF toddler thing is frustrating to listen to but isn't really affecting you. I have a friend who is very similar and is on her bloody knees (and constantly asks for advice / help, is given if, and ignores it)

FWIW we had two children at my school when I was little who were 'gentle parented'- never told no, allowed to freely express (draw on walls) etc. They were possibly extreme examples but they were the most fucked up little boys I've ever come across - to the point where at high school the elder one would whip out his knob and pee out the classroom window (because the bathroom was too far away) and the younger had to wear a crash helmet because he had a habit of running everywhere with his head down and would frequently run into people / walls / furniture.

The offensive thing about “gentle parenting” is the parents that choose not to provide their children with the security of structure and explicit boundaries assume that the rest of us who bother to parent effectively do so in a harsh and brutal manner.

Half the problems posted about (well maybe not quite half) seem to be because parents think it’s kinder to leave children in charge. Fussy eating, poor toilet training , poor sleeping, behaviour, anxiety are all mainly (but not exclusively) down to chaotic and ill defined expectations.

Of course you should tell the little toads to stop if they are hitting your child or jumping on your furniture.

I agree gentle parenting doesn't have to be like this, and it's possible to have a gentle philosophy, and boundaries and structure.

But a lot of the totally permissive ones will still call it "gentle" parenting and thiunk that's what they are doing.

Some PP's have said it's laziness, but IME parent like this I've known, it's more that they are scared to ever upset their child, for fear of being disciplinarian, causing some kind of damage or being hated.

One friend admitted she couldn't bear to do anything that made her DC cry. They were 1 and 2 at the time! So she wouldn't bundle them into the buggy to avoid being late somewhere, or say they had to hand over a toy etc. because she saw that as being cruel, they would cry and she'd feel bad.

I mean FFS babies and toddlers cry when they're thwarted, that's what they do and totally normal (I thought but didn't say!). But somehow it made me feel mean when I would say no to mine!

I once talked to another mum in a playpark whose child was really harrassing mine - pushing her off everything she tried to have a go on. I tried to nicely ask the child to take turns - no luck. The mum came over and apologised to me, but wouldn't say anything to her 3yo. I said, as reasonably as I could, "you could tell her to stop, or move her away for a bit". She just looked at me like a rabbit in the headlights and said "But... she'll be upset". Well no shit sherlock.

I think it's this weird over-reaction against excessive discipline. I'm totally anti-smacking and I'm very glad it's largely in the past, but I think some parents extend it to see any kind of discipline at all as cruel.

Urgh to the permissive parent style. We have one of those at playgroup - she has 3 boys, and she doesn't like them once they're past baby stage. Nor does she make any attempt to control or direct their behaviour.
She had coffee with another friend of mine, who also has a small boy, and my friend told her son to "share" - this woman said "oh there's no point in trying to make them share, they don't understand that" in quite a condescending manner.

Well there IS a point, but clearly her boys have never been taught because of her attitude!

The oldest boy is a couple of years younger than my elder one, so they don't really coincide at all; but her middle son is the same age as my younger son and she kept trying to get us together for playdates, parties etc. I wouldn't do it, because their behaviour at playgroup was sufficiently bad that I didn't want either of my boys around it outside of playgroup.

She flounced out of playgroup once, when one of the ladies running it (not a current mum) told off her son for hitting some other child with a toy, saying "Come on son, we'd better leave before someone ELSE starts shouting at us all!"

Worst of all though is when she was having some work done in her back yard, with heavy machinery, she would NOT keep the boys safe inside so they kept running out, where they could easily have been killed if the machinery operators hadn't seen them!

So for example, if the kids are hitting could you step in and say " are you being kind?"

Meantime the child continues hitting because they haven't been told to stop. Like seriously - cop on.

I'm a scout leader and was once told by a parent that we don't believe in telling our child "No", to which I replied "well he'll hear it here".

Same child told me "it's not my fault I did xyz (he was badly behaved), I have ADHD", to which I replied "I know you have ADHD, but that was bad behaviour and nothing to do with ADHD". His parents subsequently removed him from the group, which is a real pity because he's now 18 and still has no friends, and the scouts who joined with him who also had behaviourly problems, but supportive parents, have turned into lovely well behaved, disciplined kids with loads of friends.

Some parents forget they are not supposed to be their child's friend.

We had one at my son's school many years ago, got kicked out of every school he attended and is now in prison!! They are creating narcissists!!

Are you being kind??????

Policemen when said child turns into violent thug beating somebody up. Are you being kind. I feel sorry for some kids.

Or wife being beaten up. Are You being kind'

There always has been and always will be permissive parents. The problem is when it's going under the guise of an ethos such as "gentle parenting" it becomes validated. Taken at its core and strategies used in a reasonable way, there are benefits. So "no" being used appropriately and with meaning is better than blunt "no" constantly, but the ethos gets distorted in the world of blogs and FB links, then the permissive parent gets scared to say no incase little darling is distressed and psycological damage occurs. Not only is any challenge then an atrack on parenting style, but its also percieved as a threat to the child's well being even if the parent is out of their depth (such as OP's example of moaning about a preschooler's night feeds)

It sounds exhausting to be a specator too. I'd be distancing myself.

Personally, my main aim in parenting is just to produce pleasant citizens that function well in society and blunder on by hook or by crook. I feel exhausted whenever I click on a gentle parenting link! I couldn't face large cloth nappy/ baby wearing groups which attract these hardcore types!

I completely agree that fear of saying no to the child is commonplace these days. It's ok to say no to your child. You are the parent, not the friend/peer. I see myself as firm but fair. We have so, so much fun. But there are boundaries & expectations of behaviour. Sometimes I get it wrong, sometimes right. I wonder the same what happens when they get to school if they won't follow simple instruction at home.

I've only read to page one so far, so sorry, but in response to your friend's... We don't say no.... Just change the wording.... Don't start the sentence with 'no'.... Just say... We don't hit.... Solves that problem.

And regarding the not taking your advice on board.... YABU unfortunately, people need to reach their own breaking point before they can change things.... And we all like a good moan!!

And like someone else said... If it's your furniture that is being climbed on... You have every right to remove the child and say we don't climb here, it's dangerous

@Littlemissmuff

"Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?"

No, of course you are not being unreasonable. Just say the kids don;t appear to be getting on at the moment.

Then have adults meeting for a glass of wine or a cuppa when kids are in bed.

Eek find new friends - you are not being unreasonable - toddlers understand the word no and don't need feeding at night

Gentle parenting = Feral Children from what I’ve seen.

Might work for some families...

If they understand the words we don't hit then they understand the single word no.

Surely best not to see them as it does not seem to work for your child ? Why not just have play dates with children where there is a positive relationship?

People parent in their own way . If it does not work for you - move along.....

If you are slagging them off on Mumsnet and can't support their parenting choices then you are certainly not their friend!!

I bet they wouldn't be so 'gentle' if one of their children ran into a road. I find this 'gentle' parenting weird and attention-seeking, like if you're not telling your child off in this manner, then it is somewhat abusive. I have never smacked my children, never needed to, but that doesn't mean that I've let them walk all over boundaries for 'fear' of telling them no.

Get new friends or enlist the help of supernanny.

Look at it this way at least it's not family!
I have a very badly behaved nephew and we are all just supposed to put up with him so as not to offend his mother! Even when he is bullying my own children.
You can choose your friends but not your family

Littlemissmuff. Keep to your own standards and point out if their children are out of line, if the parents won't. I'm not the toughest or hardest parents on my dcs but I will warn them if they are out of line or hurting someone else. I dislike the namby pamby parenting style as the dcs know no boundaries. If you give a child a warning and don't follow through, they are been sent the wrong message. My 4th was at infant school with children with parents like that. The kids new no boundaries, the parents just thought it was funny that their kids were so exuberant. Without guidance these dcs became bullies, hurting others at will, and with school no blame policy, they still didn't know they were in the wrong. Ended moving my Dc from a private school, that didn't seem to give a monkey's to a lovely local state school, where every issue is dealt with even telling parents in no uncertain terms, that there children were out of order. Good luck and stand firm

I had one of those friends....last time I saw her she was still saying "That's not very nice" in a whiney voice while her teenager was hitting her.

We never visited again as I couldn't risk the teenager doing the same to him the to his disabilities.

You need to speak up when your friend child is hitting yours that’s bang out of order! She shouldn’t be letting her child hit other kids. The climbing in the furniture, if it’s in your house and they don’t listen send them home, if you think it’s going on in their house and they’re not doing anything about it don’t take you child over. If you feel their type of parenting is rubbing off the wrong way on your child maybe find a different group of friends. I agree with Thishatisnotmine they sound lazy.