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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

597 replies

Littlemissmuff · 24/01/2018 12:08

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

OP posts:
PeapodBurgundy · 26/01/2018 11:37

NotReady I agree. I have a bag under the pram with colouring in, snacks and books to keep him occupied. My expectations of him and his behaviour are high, but realistic to his age. I work hard to create an environment in which he can experiment, achieve, take risks and fail. His angry outbursts are few and far between so far, but he's coming to the age where that will likely change but they're see for what I think they are, frustration rather than misbehaviour. He gets comforted rather than punished, but I wouldn't leave him to trash ssomebodies home or the supermarket etc. There's so much to parenting you couldn't possibly put it all in one comment :-)

IkeaGrinch · 26/01/2018 11:40

Great post notready. I think the point about having reasonable expectations is really important. I recently saw two parents berating a toddler for not sitting quietly in a high chair while the family ate in a restaurant. Nobody seemed to have interacted with the child before shouting at her. They expected her to just sit in the chair quietly for a long time while people were eating. But in my view, expecting a young child to sit silently in a high chair was just setting her up to “misbehave”.

I do wonder sometimes if people are aware of how a child’s brain works when they’re so young. They’re not just small versions of adults with good impulse control and the ability to think rationally about a situation they don’t like. Often they simply don’t have the ability to comply with an adult’s expectations and no amount of confiscating toys or cancelling parties can change that.

themiram · 26/01/2018 11:56

I stopped seeing a friend when our eldest dds were toddlers. Not sure gentle parenting was a specific thing 14 years ago, but my friend let her dd do what she liked and the child would hit, refuse to share, push, and command her mother's attention in many other unpleasant ways. Mother was always gently, gently, explaining, excusing...it was clear she had no expectation of being heeded if she had said no. But she never did say no and she was very disapproving if I did. Cut your losses. I never regretted seeking out other more like-minded friends.

SockQueen · 26/01/2018 12:56

It's all very well people saying "Oh, well they're not TRUE gentle parents (subtext: like I am Halo ) they're lax/permissive/lazy," but if the OP's friends, and apparently lots of other people on GP groups, have read the books, call themselves Gentle Parents, and practise differently, who's to say who the REAL GPs are? Seems like gentle parenting has got itself a bit of a PR problem if there are all these fake ones using their name!

MiaowTheCat · 26/01/2018 13:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IkeaGrinch · 26/01/2018 13:20

To be fair though, no parenting style is going to give itself a negative name so that people who don’t adopt that style don’t feel judged!

NotReadyToMove · 26/01/2018 13:26

Seems like gentle parenting has got itself a bit of a PR problem if there are all these fake ones using their name!
Grin GrinGrin

Or, lik e it’s the case for most parenting techniques, you have people who think they are doing x or y and actually aren’t/haven’t got grasped what the principle was about.

Elocutioner · 26/01/2018 13:27

That means with a toddler, you don’t expect them to just sit in the bus wo moving or making noise etc..l you know it’s going to work for a bit but not for the whole trip. So you interact with them, you talk, look at the window, read a book. In effect Your PREVENT the situation where they start being a nuisance rather than expecting them to obey and behave and not run around and then punish them. Because they didn’t do that
With a teen, it might mean asking them to clean their bedroom but leaving them the choice as to when and how it will happen. Same for homework etc

That's just called "parenting" in my world

NotReadyToMove · 26/01/2018 13:50

Well in RL I haven’t seen that happening often (in buses or trains).
And The Times when someone does that, I’ve actually seen a lot of Hmm from other people around.
What I have seen a lot of is a parent having a right go at the child ‘for not behaving’ after having spent half an hour ignoring them whilst playing on the phone.

geekymommy · 26/01/2018 13:52

Well, the problem is, there's no way to enforce what you can call "gentle parenting". It's not trademarked or copyrighted, and there's no Pope of Gentle Parenting that can excommunicate people who are doing it wrong.

I call my parenting gentle-ish. Here's what that means to me (note: I am American, so parenting norms may be a little different here than in the UK). My kids are 5 and 2.5:
-No physical punishment. I'd be OK with slapping a kid's hand away from a hot pan, but not with smacking them afterward for trying to touch the pan.
-No physical violence from kids tolerated. That gets an immediate time-out with no warnings. Pretend violence is OK, though.
-Punishments are time-outs, losing privileges such as watching shows, or logical consequences. Time-outs are one minute per year of age, and no one can talk to you while you're in time-out.
-No humiliation as punishment.
-No destruction of property as punishment (though toys can be taken away for the rest of the day).
-Deliberately destroying toys, whether they're your own or someone else's, is against the rules (obvious exception here for toys that are intended to only be used once).
-I try not to yell, except in emergencies. I will not claim that I always manage to do this.
-No insults, sarcasm, or snark. This one is hard for me, because snark is how I deal with life. Kids aren't allowed to insult people, either.
-Lots of "How would you feel if he did that to you?" or "How do you think she felt when you did that?" questions. I try to teach empathy.
-I'm trying to teach consent. They're not allowed to keep doing something to someone else if that person has asked them to stop.
-Games have to be fun for everybody who is involved, or they're not acceptable. This means no teasing someone if it actually upsets them. Being mean to people or animals isn't allowed.
-No punishment for emotions. You're allowed to feel whatever you feel and say what you feel (though this is not a free pass for acting on those feelings). I try to empathize with them on their feelings and label their feelings- for example, "I know you're disappointed that you can't run in the kitchen". (That doesn't mean that I change the rule, but I do empathize with them not liking the rule)
-I try to keep the rules for kids to things that actually matter. I try not to have rules for my own convenience. I don't limit things like screen time unless it is causing a problem.
-You're allowed to cry (though yelling while crying is a different thing, and is not always allowed). Tears are involuntary, so aren't something to punish.
-Often tell the kids that I love them no matter what, that my love for them isn't contingent on achieving something or on their behavior.
-What's best for them is always more important than what other people might think or say, or what I feel. It's also not their job to keep me from feeling emotions.
-They breast-fed and co-slept when they were younger.
-I try to keep my expectations developmentally appropriate.
-Punishments can only be for things done voluntarily. That means no punishments for things like not being able to go to sleep or not doing well in school (though not lying quietly in your bed might be something I would punish). You might lose screen time for not doing well in school, but only if I think the problems in school are being made worse because of the screen time.
-I try to avoid "because I said so". I won't claim I always succeed.
-If I punish the kids, I generally give them warnings first (we do 1-2-3 Magic, so I "count" them), with the exception of physical violence, and always tell them what they did that was unacceptable.
-I stay away from trying to mold their interests or tastes, and I try not to make negative comments around them about their interests or tastes.
-I apologize to my kids if I realize that something I did or said was not right. If I yell, I apologize later, and say that I should not have done that.
-No scaring them, except as a game (and then only if they're not really scared). No saying things like, "Well, if you can't do this now, what are you going to do when you're in the next grade?" If they're scared of me, I would feel that I had failed in a big way as a parent.

I don't tolerate bullying, violence, or destruction of property from my kids, and this is because I am a gentle-ish parent. I do say "No" to the kids a lot.

fishfingerdinner · 26/01/2018 14:09

Hmm geekymonkey I must be a gentle parent then, I thought it was just being a good parent. Though I didn't breastfeed (because i couldn't) and didn't co-sleep so maybe actually I'm not.

geekymommy · 26/01/2018 14:10

I make sure to say things like, "You made a bad choice" rather than, "You are bad". I avoid labeling the kids- no saying things like "you are lazy". I also try to avoid saying "you always..." and "you never..." statements to the kids.

IkeaGrinch · 26/01/2018 14:14

Not to criticise geeky at all (I really agree with lots of the things on your list), but I do think most gentle parenting advocates wouldn’t use time out or confiscation of toys (other than as a logical consequence of using a toy to hit someone or damage something) as punishments. Not at all saying you’re wrong to do those things, just an opinion of what I think gentle parenting is understood to be.

IkeaGrinch · 26/01/2018 14:16

I make sure to say things like, "You made a bad choice" rather than, "You are bad". I avoid labeling the kids- no saying things like "you are lazy". I also try to avoid saying "you always..." and "you never..." statements to the kids.

Yes, this is so important! Children’s opinion of themselves are so shaped by what they’re told they are so I think it’s incredibly important not to label a child as “bad” or “naughty” etc.

Absofrigginlootly · 26/01/2018 14:16

Gentle parenting does mean saying no. It does mean setting boundaries, it does mean expectations of behavior.

It's the way we go about achieving these things that may be different.

^^this.

I have very high realistic expectations of my Los behaviour and she knows we have very firm boundaries.....but we do not punish/shout/smack/use timeout/remove toys etc to get our point across.

We model the behaviour we expect of her by staying calm, treating her with respect, allowing her the freedom (within our non negotiable boundaries) to make hooves for herself and we respect her choices. This way she feels far less inclined to kick back against our non negotiable boundaries.

She learns to behave appropriately because she wants to, not out of fear or to avoid punishment. The idea to produce children who can self regulate their own behavior instead of being trained to "follow orders".

We also "attachment parent" (if you want to add another wanky label) in that I coslept and BF until 3, spent the first year baby wearing, stay at home with her etc.... basically I just tried to meet her emotional needs wherever I could instead of "training" her to put her needs aside, which I don't think babies and small children are developmentally capable of.

It was always my natural instinct to parent this way and I grew up with a very over controlling DM who micromanaged every aspect of my life. It damaged my mental health so I would never override my DDs feelings and wishes that way.

So far at 3 it is working for us. I only recently discovered this term and thought "that sound like what we're doing" so I'm certainly not following a technique, just my instincts.

My 3 year old DD is calm, kind and gentle, doesn't hit or bite others, behaves beautifully in restaurants (the waiters always comment), plays nicely with other children and is great at expressing her own needs "it's my turn you need to wait" if another child tries to take her toy for example.

speakout · 26/01/2018 14:34

geeky- I do as you do- although I don't use punishment or time out- and I wouldn't slap a child's hand away,

Absofrigginlootly yeas - my gentle parenting/ positive parenting comes from a grounding of attachment parenting. Gentle parenting is an easy next step once you have started on that route.

fishfingerdinner · 26/01/2018 14:37

I sometimes refer to my ds as being "naughty", I'm guessing this is a big no no with gentle parenting?

Absofrigginlootly · 26/01/2018 14:38

I meant I add that my Lo has her moments like any 3 year old, I'm not saying her behaviour is "perfect" all the time.... but she is certainly not entitled or feral.

Parents raising their children to always do as they please, never think of others and never say no to them are not "gentle parenting" them...

speakout · 26/01/2018 14:44

fishfingerdinner children become what they are told. We can dislike actions, I would never label a child as naughty.
Even in mainstream school teachers will never call a child naughty.

Absofrigginlootly · 26/01/2018 14:45

fishfinger I would tend to say something like "that behavior was naughty DD, I would prefer you to make a different choice" then we might discuss what alternatives there were to the things she did/said.

That sounds really wanky and OTT written down but honestly it works

Absofrigginlootly · 26/01/2018 14:50

But generally we avoid the word naughty and would say "that wasn't kind/helpful/gentle" or something similar

snash12 · 26/01/2018 14:56

I really can't face the prospect of the entitled arseholes we're going to have among us soon.

They already are among us - the CF's we hear about on a daily basis!

shudders

Absofrigginlootly · 26/01/2018 15:20

...."then we might discuss what alternatives there were to the things she did/said."

Meant to add at the end: when she puts this into action next time we give her praise and say things like "I'm so proud of you for making a grown up choice, that was really kind".

Basically lots of positive reinforcement (praise and rewards rather than focusing on negative reinforcement i.e. punishments).

There's lots of research to back up why this is a better approach.... it's better to consistently build someone up than try and repair the damage of constantly knocking them down, no?

geekymommy · 26/01/2018 15:37

I would only slap a hand away if I couldn't think of another way to stop them from getting into danger in time. I would prefer another way.

I generally prefer reward or quid pro quo (if you stay quietly in your room all night, you can watch Paw Patrol) to punishment.

I make sure to only punish for specific actions where they knew they were doing something wrong (nothing vague like "attitude").

I know some gentle parents don't use timeouts or taking away toys, which is why I describe my methods as gentle-ish. I use punishment pretty sparingly. Spanking/smacking as punishments are still a thing here in the US, more so than the UK, so our standards may be a bit different (I have never spanked or smacked my kids as a punishment and I never intend to. I was spanked as a kid.).

It's probably not so good to refer to your DS as "naughty". If he thinks he is basically bad, then he might not try to avoid doing bad things as much as he might if he thinks he's basically good. You also don't want him to feel like there's nothing he could do to make you not be unhappy with him. That's not a good mental space to be in, and it's not conducive to good behavior.

DingDongDenny · 26/01/2018 15:39

Well gentle parents definitely like really long explanations don't they, judging by some of the posts here - no wonder their kids switch off