To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

For those of you who say you do "gentle parent" what are your reasons for this exactly? What are you scared of by disciplining your children (and I'm not talking about shouting at them, swearing at them or hitting them). What IS wrong with the word "no" and a firm approach?

they’ve put in place sensible consequences - having to leave playgroup - that are linked to the behaviour they want the child to stop.

No she hasn't. In fact she's done the best she can to separate they act from the consequences. They were leaving because he was wet. It sounded to me as though she was removing the wetness from his act as far as she could. And on top of that she was telling him that his needs always come out top and the world revolves around him. They are leaving because HE is wet, they are leaving because HE needs a change of clothes. And you can guarantee the next time that child is bored or grumpy somewhere he will do the same thing.

Y'see, this is why I think gentle parenting fails. It's our main job to bring our children up to be responsible adults who make good choices for themselves and are able to function in society.

If he swears at his boss when he's older his boss isn't going to say he's tired so he needs to go home for a nap. If he vandalises things he's not going to be told he needs to stop doing painting and go straight home for a wash, or if he's drunk and disorderly the police aren't going to tell him he needs a hand hold and a little lie down until he feels better.

All he is learning is no matter what he does his needs still come first. He's being taught that his needs are at the centre of everything. They are going home not because of what he did, but because he needs to be changed.

If that encourages any sort of choice making, it encourages only choice taking which puts his needs first. Perhaps next time he will make sure he pours the water the other way onto another child so he doesn't get wet?

It just encourages a very selfish way of thinking that doesn't ask the child to think of others in their choice making.

I never understood this style of parenting neither. those children always seemed unhappy - moaney whiny aggressive. my daughter who I did set parameters of behaviours and boundaries just seemed much happier. I let go of those parents - it was a tedious chore when meeting and I hated seeing my daughter get hurt.

fishfingerdinner if you think that gentle parenting means never saying no then you lack understanding.

This thread is a real straw man argument.

Iv'e found someone who calls themselves a gentle parent- who clearly isn't- so lets use that as a stick to beat all gentle parents.

Gentle parenting does mean saying no. It does mean setting boundaries, it does mean expectations of behaviour.

It's the way we go about achieving these things that may be different.

No she hasn't. In fact she's done the best she can to separate they act from the consequences. They were leaving because he was wet. It sounded to me as though she was removing the wetness from his act as far as she could. And on top of that she was telling him that his needs always come out top and the world revolves around him. They are leaving because HE is wet, they are leaving because HE needs a change of clothes. And you can guarantee the next time that child is bored or grumpy somewhere he will do the same thing.

They’re leaving the group because the child’s actions (spilling water) resulted in a problem (wet clothes) so they had to resolve it (by leaving the group to get changed). I don’t see how much more connected actions and consequences could be.

The other approach suggests taking away a favourite toy (which presumably wasn’t connected to the spilled water) or removing a planned enjoyable activity (which probably occurs well after the water incident and which the child might not be able to connect to it). I can’t see how much less related to the original problem that punishment could be.

I don't know anything about GP, but I would assume it means calm explanation of why the child must not do something rather than letting them run amok?

With regard to the example up thread of spilling water, I am sure most parents wouldn't punish their child for an accident? If you replace spilling water with walloping another child how does it work? I would have though GP would be not bellowing at your child but firming telling that hitting is unacceptable and in that case an apology to the other child is absolutely necessary.

The examples of parents ignoring this kind of behaviour are surely just lazy parenting and misinterpretation of what GP actually means.

I am genuinely curious about this, not having a pop at anyone.

fishfinger why would gentle parenting mean not saying no and no boundaries?

For those of you who say you do "gentle parent" what are your reasons for this exactly? What are you scared of by disciplining your children (and I'm not talking about shouting at them, swearing at them or hitting them). What IS wrong with the word "no" and a firm approach?

I consider my myself a gentle parent but I also take a pretty firm approach. There’s a huge difference between gentle parenting and permissive parenting and I think most of the examples in this thread are of permissive parenting not gentle parenting.

My reason for taking a gentle approach is that I want to treat my children with kindness, respect and empathy. We have boundaries that are enforced in an appropriate and respectful way. It works for us. :-)

I don't think what they're practising is gentle parenting, I've always understood it to be focusing on discipline and not punishment, they still need boundaries. We don't use the word no very often with our youngest (under 2 currently) very often as we try to use more positive language - we reserve no for when they've done things which aren't acceptable - if they are about to do something dangerous, nearly hurt themselves or others. We let small things slide though as toddlers still need to keep their inquisitive nature and you can't make the whole day a battle of wills!

fishfingerdinner

I do it because I believe it's the best way to instill emotional intelligance, emotional security, empathy and critical thinking. (Research based, my educational and work background is in Early Years Development Research). I also think it's a effective way to get my child to understand the reasons why I'm requesting certain behaviours. I feel it's more effective for him to learn that I don't want him to do something for a particular reason, so as he gets older and more mature, he can then apply that better to other situations. I personallly find it more effective to approach situations that way than to simply teach each individual thing you don;t want them to do. I'm not very assertive, this approach fits better and sits more comfortably with me, as opposed to having stricter routines in place.

This doesn't mean DS has no boundaries. As I said in my previous post (it's a lengthy thread, not sure if you've read every response, so apologies if I'm repeating this to you), he sometimes pushes other children. Never out of temper, but more barging past them to get to something, and just generally showing no respect for personal space. He's not 2 for a couple of months, so I don't think that behaviour is outof the ordinary for his age. That being said, he gets told. I will physically go over to him, ask him to say 'excuse me' (even though I know he can't yet, his language isn't that great), the guide him around the person he's pushing. If he's being a pest and constantly barging to get at something, I tell him it's his turn later, and occupy him elswhere. I class myself as a gently parent, but that by no means manifests itsself in a lack of boundaries.

I'm doing my best to raise an empathetic, respectful, polite child. I don't think I'm doing too badly. He's cheerful, happy and is really starting to enjoy the company of other children. I have several 'Mum firends' for want of another way to phrase it that all met at aquanatal. We all parent differently (cry it out, co sleeping, breast feeding, formmula feeding, dummies, no dummies, SAHM/working Mam's) and we all get along fine. We socialise a couple of times a month, and the kids get allont wonderfully together. I would hope that if I was 'That Parent', and raising a ferral little snowflake, that they would have said something (we all speak frankly to one another, and always have done), but at the least, surely they would have ghosted us out? I hope I'm not blinkered, but I think GP is working for us at present, if it stops working, I hope I have the insight to take a more firm approach.

I really feel for you, I had a problem like this years ago when my children were little, I used to hate having to take them to family get togethers because of the parenting of one member of family, soft parenting didn’t exist then, the child was just a spoilt brat and very nasty with it. He was actually (honestly) allowed to walk across the dining table when we were all sitting down eating, naturally my son who would have been about 3 tried to copy, I was given daggers look by the other mother for telling my son off. Final straw to me was a few years later when the boys were about 8 and my daughter approx 5, this same child literally stamping on my daughters face after knocking her to the ground because he wanted her sweets as well. We were at a funeral last year and the boy in question attended handcuffed to a prison Officer! So that parenting really worked didn’t it. Apparently he was in prison for the second time and he was only 22

Epic typos in that! And some very shoddy grammar! I'm smart me! Honest!

There are lots of parents who don’t parent their children effectively for lots of different reasons. I have seen parents yelling at their children at soft play for speaking over them or interrupting their time with their phone - yet turn a blind eye to hitting or biting or bad behaviour in soft play. Or my absolute bug bear - it’s because he’s a boy and they’re just boisterous aren’t they or I’m sure they didn’t mean it

Not all gentle parents are crap parents - as someone has said up thread the arguement on this thread is a straw man argument. Gentle parents put in place boundaries. Lazy, fearful or permissive parents probably won’t. I refer back to Janet Lansbury and Sarah O-S who actively talk about boundaries and saying no.

I stopped seeing a friend who disciplined her daughter through smacks to the hand, yelling and humiliation. The final straw was said child pulling a clump or my daughter’s hair out. They had both just turned 3. Some children are more testing but they will
also copy their parents and if they are treated aggressively or hit then why wouldn’t try do that back to another child when they dislike their actions ? Dd was also hit over the head with a hard toy by a boy who’s mum would say things like, I just don’t know what to do or they’ll sort him out at school. Her meekness (she was not a gentle parent) led to some awful behaviour. He’s actually much better at school and I believe he’s thrived with strict boundaries at school. Both Dds have plenty of friends whose parents styles differ. I don’t think your style necessarily dictates the effectiveness of your parenting.

I err towards gentle parenting but I am very strict and there are boundaries and consequences in our house. I also believe that alongside boundaries, saying no and having well behaved children I have a responsibility to support their emotional well-being too.

I also think that dogmatically subscribing to any one type of parenting or tribe is a bad idea. Take the bits that work for you and your child.

I understand the example of the water splashing and the natural consequence of missing the session as they have to go home and get dry clothes......

However, what about this scenario when a sibling is with you, do they have to be punished too? Going home will surely mean they do too?

And what about a scenario where the child has hit someone, after warnings about behaviour, not an accident, has hit out....what would the natural/ GP response to this be?

what is a straw man argument?

Straw man - arguement set up on a false basis. So, in the OP, she states that she’s sick of her gentle parenting friends who don’t say no, breastfeed, have children who push / hit / destroy the house and mum’s who moan about not sleeping. If you’ve read any gentle parenting books (I’ve been on a couple of FB groups - and I think it’s a lot of taken out of context crazy) like Janet Lansbury, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame. She gives clear examples of how to deal with hitting “No, I won’t let you hit me” whilst obstructing hits with your hands and moving hands away gently. I found this book hugely helpful when DD1 was 2. All of what she says goes against what is laid out in the OP. I just wonder where they get their info from or if they just validate each other’s crap parenting.

I'm a bit confused, of you CAN say no but are just respectful to your kids then surely most of us are "gentle parents"?

Fishfingerdinner - I reckon! Parents now seem to parent very differently to when I was little (mid 80s)

Exactly fishfingerdinner Permissive parets have picked up the term 'Gentle Parenting' and have run wild and free with it. It's basically common sense/nurturing in the most part. The main difference as I see it, is letting your child set the pace where appropriate, rather than getting them to meet their milestones at set ages. I'm hoping to let DS self wean rather than stopping at a planned age (although I hope he stops soon, as it's wearing thin and is sore now I'm pregnant again), we've been usig the potty for months as I'm letting him use it when he has his nappy off time, rather than spending a week pants off and putting him on it at intervals. (Not criticising other methods just to be clear, I just happen to be able to and happy to let DS set his own pace for most things).

fishfinger nope not everyone who says no does gentle parenting.
I say no to my dcs, I give them boundaries.
But I don’t punish them as such (I wouldn’t classify asking a child to clean up water they have throw on the floor punishment but I wouod classify sending them to their room/time out or taking away a ‘priviliege’ A punishment). I supported them and cuddled even (and actually especially) when they had angry outbursts. I explained and didn’t expect automatic obedience. But I did expect them to follow grounds rules and respect boundaries.

I think that’s very different than what is seen as ‘normal’ parenting of punishment and rewards (all those reward charts etc..), taking away privileges (there are no privilege in our house). Putting in time out, taking away the internet and whatnot.

Northernlassie1974 the response depends on the child's age maturity, if they were over 3 I'd personally tell them they need to apologise and then sit in time out until they can calm down and behave.

People forget the gentle aspect is teaching children how to behave through modelling good behaviour and focusing on what they've done wrong rather than resorting to a emotional response and yelling. So if they've pushed someone they will get sternly told it's wrong to push people, it's not an acceptable way to behave, you wouldn't like it, punishment instead would be making it emotional or adding insults i.e smacking, saying look how angry you've made me, you're embarrassing me, calling the child nasty names. It's not really that radical. Some will interpret it to suit their parenting but that doesn't mean it's what it universally is taken to mean.

Pea for me, gentle parenting is NOT just about letting the child set the pace actually. For me, that’s just logical tbh and also means that it’s ok to let the child reaching those milestones much earlier than expected btw.

It’s about fostering their sense of independence and independent thinking. It’s about respecting them just like you wouod respect an adult. It’s about loving them and nurturing them rather than going son likea ton of brick if they ‘misbehave’. It’s abiut providing the right environment for them to be their best self

That means with a toddler, you don’t expect them to just sit in the bus wo moving or making noise etc..l you know it’s going to work for a bit but not for the whole trip. So you interact with them, you talk, look at the window, read a book. In effect Your PREVENT the situation where they start being a nuisance rather than expecting them to obey and behave and not run around and then punish them. Because they didn’t do that.
With a teen, it might mean asking them to clean their bedroom but leaving them the choice as to when and how it will happen. Same for homework etc...

Respecting a child and a teen ime means that you have very few angry outbursts, slamming doors etc... my own dcs are fine telling me that they aren’t happy with xxx that I asked them. In a calm way. They will listen to why I want them to do xxx, I will listen to why they don’t. And then I decide. Maybe they have a point, maybe the xxx is actually important enough to insist it’s happening.
Read8ng MN And the general advice on here about not letting said teenagers walking all over you, imposing x and y, removing the internet until they have done xx or taking away devices for a week because they have done yyy, it’s a very far cry to what I see in my house.

However, what about this scenario when a sibling is with you, do they have to be punished too? Going home will surely mean they do too?

I think it depends on circumstances, the same as if a child is being punished by having an activity cancelled which might also affect a sibling.

And what about a scenario where the child has hit someone, after warnings about behaviour, not an accident, has hit out....what would the natural/ GP response to this be?

The immediate action would always be to step in and prevent the child hurting someone. That might mean physically removing them from the situation if that’s the only way to stop them hurting someone.

For me the next step would depend on the situation. I would remind the child that it’s not okay to hit, that it hurts and upsets other people. If they are calm enough (and able to understand/communicate) I’d carry on talking to them and ask why they were hitting. I’d also use my understanding and relationship with them to think about why it might be happening - eg are they overtired, did a child take a toy from them and they’re angry, are they unsettled because of a big event like arrival of a sibling or starting nursery. Basically trying to understand why they might act this way instead of just saying they’re bad or naughty.

Then, depending on my understanding of the situation I might decide that they’re too overwhelmed to stay in the playgroup or playground and so take them elsewhere. Or I might decide to allow them to return to the group but be very alert to their behaviour and step in immediately if it seems like they might hit again. I’d also keep talking to them about how they’re feeling and make sure they understand that it’s not okay to hit and that they can talk to me if they need help or if they need to get away from the situation.