To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

I found the quickest way to stop this type of parent trying to be friends with me was to talk about the different types of bottles for formula feeding, controlled crying (so I was getting a decent night's sleep) and which ready made baby foods were the best! Op, you need to avoid the free range, organic type parents.

I like natural consequences. You punch me then I punch you.

Now that one was a fun one to explain to the parents and keep a straight face.

Sorry I've not read the whole thread but can someone please explain what gentle parenting is?

My kids are 20 & 16 so obviously I'm out of he loop

Sorry I've not read the whole thread but can someone please explain what gentle parenting is?

I would define it as treating your child with the same kindness, empathy and respect that you’d show to an adult you cared about.

Which you can definitely do while also enforcing the boundaries children need.

I found the quickest way to stop this type of parent trying to be friends with me was to talk about the different types of bottles for formula feeding, controlled crying (so I was getting a decent night's sleep) and which ready made baby foods were the best!

Gentle parenting has nothing to do with what choices you make about how to feed a baby. Some gentle parents will formula feed. Some will breastfeed. Some will use Ella’s Kitchen etc. Some will cook from scratch.

Just like any other parenting style really.

Except the leaving your child to cry at night. I don’t know any gentle parents who would advocate that.

Oxcheeks
Sorry I've not read the whole thread but can someone please explain what gentle parenting is?

IkeaGrinch Thu 25-Jan-18 22:30:42 explains it really well further up this page;

So a GP approach might be:
Child asked to help clean up spilled water and parent explains that their actions have created more work for the person running the group.
Child is taken out of group and it is explained to them that this is happening because their clothes are wet and will need to be changed

A non-GP approach might be:
Child asked to help clean up spilled water
Child told/made to apologise to group facilitator
Child has favourite toy confiscated or favourite activity cancelled and presumably is told that this is punishment for spilling the water.

Screeching and over strict parents also mess up their kids and they can be as naughty. Later kids of strict parents just end up way better liars than kids of laid back parents. These parents do sound annoying and extreame, there are ways of saying “no” in a way that makes sense and doesn’t give them PTSD so I don’t get these parents. Find new friends. I’m lax on my son because I was advised to be by a speech theripist but he’s a teen, he’s never taken to old fashioned disapline anyway and he’s a far more helpful and less anxious child when he finds his own boundaries but 3 is too young for this kind of parenting.

I’m with the GP parenting on this one, most kids will have spilled the water by accident and taking a toy off them would just make them angry.

I've said "no we don't hit" And been told by ALL three why I must not say no because they are doing this gentle parenting and even my own child will end up damaged because they don't understand no at this age anyway..

Avoid the No word that has the magical power to crush the spirits of little noble savages small children into a heap of dust.

Phrase it as a positive. Bonus marks for including the words 'gentle' and 'gently' -
"We always play gently in my house. We use gentle hands".
"We always listen to [your name] in my house and [your name] won't ask again - she will just take the toy if you can't play gently with it."
"We don't climb on windowsills in my house. Climbing is for outside."

crocodarl Wed 24-Jan-18 13:09:13
I had a friend who advocated the Waldorf style, which according to her, meant you should never tell a child off for anything. I don't know anything about Waldorf (so no offence intended if, as I suspect, this is not what it means at all!!)
Basically, in practice, it meant her 4 year old sat by himself on the bottom of the slide and flung gravel at the other children when they asked him to move.
In Waldorf schools this sort of delightful treatment of others is viewed as a vital element of their souls' incarnation so intervention does not happen.

Hell really is other people's children.

Agree with Lion and Bertie

I've only read about 1/3 down because it was getting too long.

Your friends are not gentle parenting they are permissive parenting as pp have said.

Anyone reading this who is genuinely interested in what gentle parenting is I would suggest you res this book:

www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0399160280/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=calm+parents+happy+kids&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1516931202&sr=8-1

It is about setting appropriate limits on behaviour but not inforcinng them through fear and punishment, but through empathy and understanding and setting a good example by controlling your own emotions as a parent. So screaming "No!" at your children 24/7 is just showing them how not to behave

Edited it for you upstart:

So a GP approach might be:
Child asked to help clean up spilled water and parent explains that their actions have created more work for the person running the group.
Child is taken out of group and it is explained to them that this is happening because their clothes are wet and will need to be changed
Child comes back again the next week and does the same thing again because they know they can get away with it
Child pisses everyone off with repeated bad behaviour while Mummy just wrings hands

A non-GP approach might be:
Child asked to help clean up spilled water
Child told/made to apologise to group facilitator
Child has favourite toy confiscated or favourite activity cancelled and presumably is told that this is punishment for spilling the water.
Child doesn't do it again

How about this one Elton?
GP:
Negative consequences are rare for the child so having to leave early with wet clothes makes a big impression. They cry all the way home. They're talking about it for weeks and remind you every time you go to group that they'll be very very careful with their cup as they don't want to leave early. (This was DD at about 22 months, slightly different scenario.)

Non-GP:
Child refuses to hand over bear. Parent takes bear off child. Child screams at parent/tries to snatch bear back. Parent puts child in time out for this further bad behaviour. Child throws a tantrum and refuses to stay in time out. Parent repeatedly puts child back in time out. In all that fuss over getting the punishment to happen, everyone has forgotten about the spilled water and the helpers at the group are left to clear it up on their own.

Point being, any sort of parenting can be done badly. I'm sure your examples are as real as mine.

YANBU OP. These sorts of kids are a pain in the arse. The children may end up all right but everyone else around them has to suffer in the meantime.

My kids are older now but I know a handful of these. One girl was a nightmare child because her mother never disciplined her; hitting, pushing, pinching, throwing sand. The mother really made a rod for her own back but blamed it on her daughter just being a special spirit. Everyone else could see she just needed to be told no. Be warned OP, this little girl tried to push one of my kids down the stairs one day. I saw it with my own eyes and my kid only saved themselves by grabbing the banister. Didn't socialise again with them for years. The daughter is somewhat better now she's older because she's learnt you don't have many friends at school if you're horrid to other people. She's still horrid to her mother though. Hits her in anger. Parents can't understand why she struggled with friendships when younger!

Another family like this has a worse outcome. Two boys, both have grown up into nasty, bullying little shits of teenagers. They make multiple children's lives a misery at school and constantly waste teachers' time with their vile attitudes and lack of respect.

I was all ready to be outraged and say YABU util I read your post. I class myself as a gentle parent/attachment parent/yoghurt knitter/lentil weaver, but to my mind there's a world of difference between gentle parenting and permissive parenting. The way your friends are parenting would get my back up too if I'm honest. They're hurting your child and being alllowed to do so. That's not right in my opinion.
DS will be 2 in March, we partially co-sleep (he starts the night in his own bed, and some nights will wake and come into our bed either for a feed or just a cuddle), breastfeed on demand, we don't shout or hit, and we try to explain things as much as you can with a toddler this young. We never sleep trained so he set his own sleep routine (we have a set bedtime routine of bath if he's having one, book, feed and bed, we just let his body clock set the time on it. I'm a SAHP so I can fit around him, if I worked it would be different). He's allowed to take risks (climbing about etc), and to make his own choices within reason (what he eats from a selection of options, sometimes he picks out his own clothes etc). If there are no or few consequences, we don;t force him to do things.
We don't let him run riot, he's not hit another child yet, but he has a tendency to push, and ALWAYS gets told. I simply move him away and ask him to be gentle/say excuse me etc. If he's making a pest of himself, I take him to another area of the group/softplay/park etc and try to occupy him there. He is sometimes made to do things he doesn't want to, because he's barely more than a baby, and hasn't got the capacity to make infomed choices.
I was on several Gentle/Attachment parenting support groups on Facebook, but left because there were ridicuous levels of permissive parenting going on. I try not to judge as a rule, but I'm only human, and some of the posts had my judgey pants hoiked up so high I they were smothering me! One lady was walking around outdoors in winter in her socks because her toddler wanted to wear her shoes and they don't say no to her. There were children allowed out in freezing temperatures with no coat because they didn't want to put one on (we're talking toddlers, not children oldenough to make the connection and see the consequences for themselves, so no lessons to be learned).
You can practice attachment parenting, and still set appropriate boundaries. It can be tricky,I try not to dwell on the amount of times I've tried to take the gentle approach, then ended up losing my temper and being snappy with him because I've been too permissive. Parenting is hard sometimes, we can;t get it right every time, but you at least try!

I never get the ' we don't do this' turn of phrase. Who's the 'we'? That implies that the adult doesn't climb on the furniture either, even though they might want to. What's wrong with saying 'don't climb on the furniture'. or 'climbing isn't allowed in this house'

There was a Steiner pre school in a village I lived in. The village was basically houses round a large village pond and a village hall.
Every now and then the Steiner group would hold a fair to make money. Along to this fair would come older kids of Steiner families. These kids were awful. They would trash the tress round the pond, destroy flowers, hurl things at the ducks. Their parents did nothing.

From what I can work out the boys were always having a 'testosterone surge' which explained their 'lively' behaviour. Didn't matter what age they were they were always having a 'surge'.

I haven’t read through the thread but YANBU op.

Children need boundaries that’s it.

All this fluffy bullshit is bollocks. I avoid these kind of parents ( and kids).

DS aged 6 went to a Soft Play ( hate these places with a passion- and having been for the party, now I know why) and got bit by some random kid aged around 4.

Left a huge bite mark.

DS was distraught and I was furious. Caught up with kids parents and spoke to them about what had happened.

They never disciplined the kid only a softly softly “ oh darling, teeth are for eating food” approach.

Ten minutes later, I kid you not, said biter had bitten the birthday child- only much harder and aggressively. It was a nasty nasty bite.

Ended up that the management got involved.

Before anyone starts on about SEN, this child clearly did have some behavioural issues but the parents were so damn soft and pathetic on their approach , that this kid was not even told that what they had done was wrong. How is that parenting?

YANBU at all OP.

There are parents who have lost control with all sorts of approaches.

Some parents can scream, shout, hit their children, and the children still run riot.
I have seem parents slap and kick their kids, use the worst bad language towards them , and still the child responds with a kick or throws something.
That parent is trying to exert control and authority- but it's not working either.

Bad parenting is not confined to those parents who claim to be using a particular technique.

Elton, how is the child in the GP scenario learning they can “get away” with something? Their mum isn’t wringing their hands, they’ve put in place sensible consequences - having to leave playgroup - that are linked to the behaviour they want the child to stop.

And, if non-GP worked as you suggest then we wouldn’t see the same children each week dragged kicking and screaming to “time out” while their parent snatches their favourite toy away and screams at them about how naughty they are and how that trip to the park they were looking forward to is now cancelled.

No parenting style can claim to have an instant 100% success rate. To say that non-GP works first time every time while GP means the behaviour continues just isn’t accurate.

And, as catkind says, often if a child isn’t used to being shouted at or having favourite toys taken away then consequences like having to leave a group have a big impact on them and they often want to talk about it again and again, and it becomes a good opportunity to have a proper chat about how actions affect other people and how we should behave in different situations.

The point about not being negative isn't because negativity will crush the soul of the poor child or because everything has to be wonderful and rainbows all the time, it's simply because giving a negative response only tells the child what not to do, which is only half of the story.

Usually when a child is doing something we don't like it's because they are acting on some kind of impulse. You can't just stop an impulse like that without redirecting it because a child doesn't have the maturity to think 'alright, I'm not allowed to hit so I'll just sit down and calm myself down' or 'oh yes I'd better go and punch that wall instead of a person' or whatever. So invariably, you tell tell hem what not to do, their immature brain can't produce a solution and they do it anyway, at which point you get cross and/or punish them for it.

That said, I dislike the generic 'gentle hands' response instead. It's unhelpful because generally if a child is hitting the they are not aiming to be gentle and getting it wrong! That might be true for a six month old baby without the motor control to refine their movements. But for a 2 or 4 year old, they are normally intending to hit - which means you either have to prevent this or very quickly figure out what's triggering the hitting and concentrate on that impulse. This is enormously difficult to do unless it's a phase with a very clear pattern. But it can be much more constructive because the child learns a better way to control that impulse. I found hitting and rudeness to be the two things that I couldn't find a helpful gentle parenting tool to deal with.

Imagine if there were no speed limit or other traffic signs but instead you just had to guess. If you went over the limit or broke the rules, a big sign would come down saying 'No!' and if it happened more than once you'd get a fine in the post. It would be extremely confusing and everyone would end up paying fines all the time. Plus people would get confused and cause accidents because they wouldn't be able to learn from the punishment. It benefits everyone to have the expected behaviour clearly communicated.

I was friends with a "gentle parent" who had the most aggressive child I've ever met. She'd follow his hits with a sing-songy voice: "Let's play with the cars instead!" and the child was never told how his behaviour was unacceptable, so he just kept on doing it. Utterly bonkers. You could tell she was getting angry and hated the behaviour too but she wouldn't let him know anything about how her behaviour was affecting her. They moved away and on leaving the child kicked me in the shin. I merrily waved goodbye, relieved that my son didn't need to be subjected to his violence any more.
Its not like we are saying "just keep shouting NO and they get the idea". You do the three strikes rule of 1 get told that is unacceptable 2 we don't do that because of x, if you do it again, y will happen. 3 OK I said y will happen if you did it again and this is what will happen now. Actions mean consequences in all of life, of course you do whatever is age appropriate and what you believe will work with your child but they need to know right and wrong - they'll not just work it out by themselves. Many times I say no quickly because of an immediate danger that they need to be alerted to straight away in a tone they will listen to. Your main priority is to keep them safe!