Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

597 replies

Littlemissmuff · 24/01/2018 12:08

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

OP posts:
laura6032 · 25/01/2018 19:17

There's a difference between gentle parenting and just allowing your kid to do what they want.
Even gentle parenting should include boundaries, kids need them no matter what parenting strategy you use.
Your friends are wrong, no child should be allowed to endanger themselves without the parent telling them off, kids need boundaries, they sound cuckoo

snozzlemaid · 25/01/2018 19:26

Good luck to them when the kids are teenagers.

RidingMyBike · 25/01/2018 19:38

Look for some new friends.

I have a friend like this - her now 6.5 year old is a nightmare. Hits people, including her mother, can’t interact socially with other children at all - always wants to ‘win’ and then has a meltdown if she doesn’t. It didn’t really affect me until I had my own child (4.5 yrs younger) but now I keep my distance as I don’t want DD getting the idea this is an acceptable way to behave.

It’s up to them about the BFing - but I did get irritated with my friend as she wouldn’t bring or buy a drink (even water!!) for her child if we were out, she would only let her daughter breastfeed. This was at age 1+ up to age 5.

Albertschair · 25/01/2018 19:42

I follow gentle parenting techniques because they work with my child to get the behaviour I desire.

In public she is well behaved. Takes turns. Doesnt hit. Runs round in playparks but not cafes or restaurants. We don't go to restaurants often because it is a big ask of a toddler to sit still for so long. But she manages it. She has been bitten but so far not the biter. She knows to be gentle with other children. In as far as any toddler is, she is empathetic.

Of course she is given boundaries. All that i have read supports setting boundaries in an age appropriate way. And not setting them up to fail by expecting too much of them (small children in restaurants will be bored). So if she is being overly rough with another child, i take her away from the situation. Calm her down from her over excitement then we go back to it. And I'll play with them for a bit then back off once I'm sure they are playing nicely again.

Same applies if another child is being overly rough with her. I'm teaching her to walk away rather than push back.

We are all just making it up as we go along though. No-one ever gets it perfect

Jassmells · 25/01/2018 19:49

They aren't gentle they are lazy fuckwits who are in cloud cuckoo land about their kids behaviour. You are absolutely right and obviously need to protect your child from being hit.
I'd suggest a trip to a nice rowdy soft play with some feisty mum's in the audience and see what happens when their little shits hits some random kid ;)

BarbarianMum · 25/01/2018 19:49

Any child that hit mine when they were little got told "no hitting" in an extremely firm voice and "don't you dare" plus a death glare if they looked like coming back for a second swipe. If people want to use "use gentle hands" for when their child has been lamped, that's up to them.

BarbarianMum · 25/01/2018 19:50

Am talking children here, not babies obviously. Even i don't glare at babies.

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 25/01/2018 19:55

In real life, I'm one of the most gentle parents I know.
I'm patient. I very rarely raise my voice. I hardly, if at all, punish.
So I thought the "Gentle Parents" would be my people.

Err...No!

The facebook group (with which I have a morbid fascination) is full of people basically posting: "This isn't working-how can i redouble my efforts and keep doing the same thing"
And because no one is allowed (by the rules of the group) to suggest anything "ungentle" they never get the answer they so badly need, which is; "Its OK to stop this if its isn't working out"

You also get a lot of posts where people have "lost it" and shouted at their children and feel terrible about it. And people will come on the thread and say "Oh, don't feel bad- we all slip up"
I strongly suggest that these "slip ups" occur after an entire day of escallating tension with the kid testing the non existant boundaries and the mum trying to gently explain the conflict away.

Perhaps if they had deal assertively with the issue in the morning they wouldn't be "losing it" in the afternoon.

The same people will be very vociferously against "time-out" and think that its damaging. But if you consider why health professinals recommend time out- its because its a disciple method that parents can carry out while maintaining calm. They specifically hope to avoid parents "losing it."

Even though I don't punish much myself, i would rather see parents punishing calmly than holding themsleves to ridiculous standards and frequently losing control over their own behaviour as a result.

The "gentle parents" i know in real life....Hooo Boy!

People that will let their kids run around in shops pulling things off rails, breaking stuff, the excuses "Oh at 4 he can't understand"

And then, after I've stoicly put up with this nonsense (and the resulting deterioration of my own child's behaviour) all afternoon; getting pissy with me for cracking open the chicken nuggets.

Its a cast iron rule: The laxer a parent is on disciple, the stricter they will be on food. Like they've reached such a pinnicle of individualism that they only care about what's literally inside of one other person.

wallowinwater · 25/01/2018 19:56

What you describe is not gentle parenting- it’s permissive.
Email from Sarah Oakenwell smith on boundaries:

There is a pervasive myth that Gentle Parenting is permissive - because it allows children to "get away with anything", doesn't discipline, doesn't have any rules, never says "no" and doesn't uphold any boundaries. All of these beliefs are wrong (see more of them HERE). Boundaries play a crucial role in Gentle Parenting, in fact, so much so they really do form one of its cornerstones. I think the difficulty in understanding, comes from those who don't really 'get' this style of parenting and also from those who practice it, but are a bit too scared to set and particularly enforce boundaries.

Why Are Boundaries Important?
Simply put, they help kids to feel safe and secure, by knowing - clearly - what is expected of them. As much as we may like to think we're 'rule-breakers', it's rare that people do well without any instruction at all. Boundaries are in essence the blueprint of behaviour for kids to follow - if they know what's expected of them, it's much easier for them to behave in ways that adults would prefer. To add to this, boundaries keep kids safe (our own children as well as other people's children), it keeps the environment safe (by reducing breakages and damages) and it helps kids to grow up to be kind, respectful individuals who are capable of forging good relationships with others and functioning in the 'adult world'.

What Boundaries Should You Have?
That's entirely up to you. There will be some obvious basics that all families share - those that involve safety ("no running into the road", "no going off with strangers", "no playing with fire", "no hitting/biting/kicking others" etc..). Then there will be others that are more unique to your own beliefs, albeit some may be commonly shared with other families ("no shoes inside", "no jumping on the sofa/bed", "no painting without covering the table/floor first" etc.). What you choose is entirely up to you. Some parents have no issue with jumping on beds or sofas, so that's a boundary they wouldn't need to set, for others it really matters - so they would set that boundary. That's the beauty with boundaries - they really are flexible. You simply choose what's really important to you. My only proviso is that non-safety related boundaries need to be really mindfully set (ask yourself WHY am I feeling the need to set this boundary?) and the number kept to a realistic minimum. A home with way too many boundaries (aka Authoritarian parenting) is in many ways worse than a home with barely any boundaries (aka Permissive parenting). Gentle parenting tries to strike a balance with boundaries - not too many, not too few. It also aims to keep them realistic based on the age of the children and their physical and psychological capabilities.

When Do You Discuss and Enforce Them?
Depending on the age of your children, once you have decided upon a boundary (and therefore set it), it's a good idea to discuss the boundaries with them. Of course, if you have a baby or a toddler, this is a pretty pointless exercise, the chances are they won't understand (although it gets you into a good habit of communicating with them, regardless of their understanding!), but if you have a 3, 4 or 5 year old (and definitely older) then discussing your boundaries when you set them is a great idea. Make this discussion appropriate to their age - for instance with a three year old, reading a story book about not hitting others is a great age appropriate way to help them to understand. If you have a seven year old, then sitting and discussing with them, watching some videos together - and even getting them involved in drawing a poster of 'our family rules' is probably the way to go.

When should you enforce them? Every time they are broken (or about to be broken). The thing with boundaries is that you must be consistent with them. if you're inconsistent, it's confusing for kids. They never know whether to test your boundary (ie break it) or not. All parents involved in the child's care need to be on the same page too, inconsistency between adults, is just as confusing as one adult being consistent over time. If you find yourself being inconsistent with boundary enforcing, then it's quite likely that you need to cut back on the number you have, and ask yourself that question again "why do I feel the need to set this boundary?". Inconsistent enforcing is a huge cause of increasingly problematic behaviour.

How Do You Enforce Them?
This is the one where people get confused the most I find. Because a lot of people think it's not gentle to make a child cry. That's just not true. Most of the time it's impossible to reinforce a boundary without making the child cry. Similarly, sometimes you've just got to say "NO!". Saying "no" and making the child cry often go hand in hand with boundary enforcing. The gentle part comes in when you set the boundaries (mindful and considerate) and in what you do when you enforce them.

Here are two examples of boundary enforcing. In both cases the scenario - and the boundary broken - is the same. The child in your care has hit another child.

Scenario One
"(screaming) Stop it!! How DARE you hit another child, what have I told you?", "Get over there now, stay there for five minutes and think about what you've done, you naughty little boy".....(child eventually quietens)...."I've told you not to hit, why don't you ever listen? Stop crying - what are you crying for? You were the one who hit, it was your fault! If I can't trust you we won't come to the park again"

Scenario Two
(loudly) "STOP! I won't let you hit!" (moves in to physically move the child away as quickly as possible)....(after you have moved the child away) "Remember, we don't hit - it hurts people!"....(child inevitably cries).......(following cues from child - stay at the distance they prefer)..."let me know if you'd like me to help you calm down, I'm right here"...(when the child is calm/has stopped crying).."do you remember when we read the book about not hitting? Why don't we do it?"...."What could you have done instead of hitting if you were feeling angry?"

Hopefully you can tell the difference between the two. Scenario one is very authoritarian, yes, it upholds the boundary - but completely ignores the fact that children hit for a reason. The adult misses the cause of the behaviour and as a result, any resulting discipline is fairly ineffective. The child is left to deal with their upset alone and punished by being excluded from their carer - and then further punished by not being taken to the park again.

In scenario two - the boundary is enforced, but it's done in a way that is considerate to the child, understands that there is always a reason behind 'misbehaviour', seeks to teach the child how to behave better and reconnects and supports the child while they cry.

In this scenario - ie your child hitting another, unless you distract from the hitting (before it happens) there is no way to enforce this boundary without making the child cry. Crying is not the problem - it's what you do when the child cries that matters. The key is to stay calm, stay consistent, stay connected and once everyone is calm - and capable of listening - use the opportunity to communicate and reinforce not only why the boundary is important - but more appropriate ways to behave in the future - ie to allow learning and growth to happen - this is the true meaning of discipline! This is what makes reinforcing boundaries gentle, not the absence of crying.

For more on boundaries - including what to do when parents and carers clash on them, check out my Gentle Discipline book (in the UK/ROI, USA, Canada and Rest of the World).

greeneyedlulu · 25/01/2018 19:59

Only read the post and the first 2 comments.
Totally agree the 1 comment

My advice..... Get new friends!! Those snow flakes will only melt on you when you need them

greeneyedlulu · 25/01/2018 19:59

*1st

Misswiggy · 25/01/2018 20:01

I didn't even realise this was an actual 'thing'!

Gentle parenting? More like lazy parenting.

wallowinwater · 25/01/2018 20:06

This isn’t gentle parenting!!! if your friends don’t respect your home and don’t stop thier kids hitting yours I personally would find that really intolerable and look to find new friends or provide them with the email I just posted by the founder of ‘gentle parenting’.

IkeaGrinch · 25/01/2018 20:10

What the OP described is not gentle parenting though. Criticising gentle parenting based on the OP’s friend’s makes about as much sense as criticising parents who use “time out” because you saw a parent hitting their child, calling them stupid and putting them in “time out” in the garden when it’s freezing outside. That’s obviously not the way most people use time out so it would make no sense to condemn time out because some parents use it in a way that’s abusive. Similarly, it makes no sense to condem gentle parenting because of the actions of the people the OP says are gentle parents.

Cantusethatname · 25/01/2018 20:11

Mine understood no.

MisDescamisados · 25/01/2018 20:11

Children need boundaries and damn well do understand “no” . Mad I’m quite a liberal parent . Seriously , this sounds hella like parents without a clue , afraid of the responsibility .
You won’t harm your kids with gentle but firm boundaries and disipline , you will if you let them run feral .
Allowing your kids to hit other kids without rebuke is tanatamount to abuse , as how’s that socialising them ?

Supercala123 · 25/01/2018 20:12

I’m on the receiving end of constant criticism for sleeping with and still breastfeeding my one year old. I don’t think sleep training is right for us but wouldn’t shove that view on anyone else. Each to their own.
I’ve spoiled my son, made a rod for my own back etc etc when I happen to mention that I’m tired. I’m at the point now where they can all fuck right off. I’ll raise my son as I see fit. God knows why there isn’t even a bit of an understanding supportive nod towards howvtiring any little child can be regardless of parenting style.

walkinginshadows · 25/01/2018 20:13

Find new friends and/or limit play dates.

I have a friend whose DD (3) is given no boundaries or consequences for her poor behaviour. She routinely bites, hits, shoves, snatches toys etc and her mother thinks she’s cute and, in her words, “just being a toddler and expressing herself.”

Said child decided months ago that she doesn’t like her car seat harness so she now does not buckle her in at all - quite literally just climbs into her car seat and not restrained at all. The mum thinks she’s being independent and knows her own mind. To me it’s a tragedy waiting to happen.

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 25/01/2018 20:14

"Separate to that, I've seen those parents who choose to ignore there own children's spiteful , destructive actions. Nobody's allowed to say boo to the child and generally the parent claims the child is just a sensitive soul. Funny that because when a child eventually has to resort to pushing/hitting back to defend the parent swoops in demanding that's enough etc. They're generally very hipercritical."

We had this. I had just started a new playgroup with Ds (then two). As it was the summer holidays some older siblings were abut including one boy who pushed Ds very hard and caused him to fall over.
Mum ignored this and insisted that it was an "accident"

Ds waited an entire hour until him and older boy were alone in the sand pit and whacked him hard across the head with a plastic spade.

Older boy retreated to his mum for cuddles. Mum soothed him right out of the Gentle Parenting play book: "I know you feel like hitting him back darling but you won't will you? He's just little and he doesn't have impulse control but we have impulse control don't we?"
All the time looking over at me for some kind of reaction, i suppose. Exactly what she was expecting of me..I'm unsure.
Poor impulse control is the very last thing i would have put that little episode down to....it was practially military planning on Ds's part!

On the way home, I asked Ds how his morning had been. He had very little language at the time but was able to look at me thoughtfully and say "Fwiends.....Scawy"
Yes Ds...yes they can be...

Zerosugaroption · 25/01/2018 20:17

The laxer a parent is on disciple, the stricter they will be on food.

Spot on. Madness.

CatsAndCairngorms · 25/01/2018 20:17

unlimiteddilutingjuice I hear you about the FB groups and Mums letting things go way too far before they deal with them.

I am a gentle parent - NOT a permissive parent, but a gentle parent. I have about 20 Mum friends who are also gentle, not permissive.

Our children are all well behaved, thoughtful, empathetic individuals. None of us go anywhere near the madness on FB because it bears no resemblance to our reality.

IkeaGrinch's time out analogy is very sensible.

speakout · 25/01/2018 20:18

I am a "gentle parent", not a liberal one, and not s pushover.

My kids have never been punished. They respect others.

Zerosugaroption · 25/01/2018 20:19

I am a gentle parent, but my kids are bastards.

ApocalypseNowt · 25/01/2018 20:23

I know some people kind of like this. I don't know if they think they are 'gentle parenting' or if they just don't do much parenting at all.

When my dc do something naughty and they get told off, sometimes they go "....but timmy is doing it". My stock response (taken from my DM) is "I'm not interested in Timmy, I'm interested in you".

It weirdly has the side effect that Timmy stops whatever nonsense he's up to as well...probably because the message is given that his parents aren't interested. They sometimes buck up a bit too.

HopelesslydevotedtoGu · 25/01/2018 20:26

I found 2-3 quite tricky with friends who had different parenting philosophies, it's an age where kids are testing boundaries and learning self control, and if parents aren't monitoring and intervening then playdates end in tears. I didn't feel any of the kids were intentionally naughty at that age, just that they were having strong emotions themselves and needed guidance and help from their parents to manage them, and taking home early when they were having a bad day.

I cooled things a bit with some friends whose kids were hitting, snatching etc, and the parents either weren't stopping them or were doing ineffectual things like telling off lots but not actually stopping them. I just met them v occasionally in situations where it didn't impact on my child, eg a playgroup where they could play separately.

As we got closer to 4 I found that all the kids were better able to control themselves and we could meet up more often.

Swipe left for the next trending thread