To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

Personally i’d Try and limit the play dates...try and find some other parents who have a more similar parenting style to you. Although think about that their behaviour is it possibly slight depression? some people find it harder than others bringing up children. However it sounds like being with them isn’t much fun and you need to look after yourself and son first.

..these examples are of lazy poor permissive parenting, not gentle parenting. Not saying no and not setting boundaries is not the point of gentle parenting... it's a label people are using to justify to themselves and others what they are doing...

Btw I think one of the most important things for children is sleep. And if you do not allow them to sleep or are unintentionally encourage them to have crap sleep patterns when they are toddlers, well that is not gentle parenting that is just a mistake. It makes you unhappy and them unhappy.

Gentle parenting is about how you enforce boundaries, not whether you have any.

If a child behaves in a way that’s unacceptable I will intervene, including physically moving him away if necessary (eg if behaving unsafely). However, I then choose to talk to them about what they’ve done and why this wasn’t acceptable. If they are angry, tearful or having a tantrum I’ll stay with them until they are calmer, offering hugs or the chance to talk if they need it.

A more authoritarian parent might choose to intervene, including physically moving the child, and then enforce “discipline” by shouting or sending the child to a naughty step or for time out. Personally I think that’s unhelpful as a child who is experiencing difficult feelings needs to know their parent is there to support them and help them, not to be sent away to deal with those emotions alone.

In short, both parenting styles involve setting boundaries, but differ in the way the boundaries are enforced.

Nettleskins. Knew the child from six months old and his sibling. Very aware of the family situation. He and my DD went through playgroup to school and are in the same class. No opinions expressed based on anyting other than firm fact and observation of him interacting with my daughter and others over the last 10, weary years. He is, and continues to be, without any diagnosis of SEN. Rather, he is the outcome of a well intentioned, if deluded parenting approach. I would never presume to judge a child's behaviour that is as difficult as his without being fully aware of any diagnosis.
I am not that callous.

I’d definitely stop the play dates. You can’t really influence how others choose to parent their kids, but you can control the environment that you put your child in (at this age, it’s harder as they get older). If they ask why you aren’t meeting up, be honest: tell them that you respect their right to parent however they choose, but that their children don’t play nicely with yours and so while you would love to meet up without children, you don’t want him socialising with children who think it’s fine to hit. And don’t take it any further. Kids are savvy things - the little darlings who run rampant at home will get their comeuppance at school because the real world doesn’t care about what the word “no” does to your self esteem!

Also, I meant to add that gentle parenting does involve there being consequences for behaviour that violates boundaries. But the consequences should make sense to the child - eg “we’re going to have to leave playgroup now as you have thrown water on your clothes and they are wet so need to be changed” rather than “you shouldn’t have thrown the water so I’m going to take away your toy for the rest of the day” or “We’re not going to playgroup next week because you behaved badly this week.”

Sallyfox

Just wanted to add my respect too. That's what's needed on mumsnet, experienced advice. Can I just say I bet you you were a good parent- someone who dosnt sing out for mother of year medal and humble like yourself, I'd pay atttention to that!

Separate to that, I've seen those parents who choose to ignore there own children's spiteful , destructive actions. Nobody's allowed to say boo to the child and generally the parent claims the child is just a sensitive soul. Funny that because when a child eventually has to resort to pushing/hitting back to defend the parent swoops in demanding that's enough etc. They're generally very hipercritical . Said child adores parent though because they get own way. Massively backfires when child hits tween age, parent can't cope, all those around can't help thinking, good, backfired on you.

Is it only gentle parents who don't shout at their kids?
I didn't shout at my kdis when they were little.
I helped them with how they felt, didn't just stick them in a corner and let them get on with their distress like some sort of a savage.

Its everyday, basic parenting.

Oh, love, I could write the book about this! This included having to take my 18 month old, urgently, to A and E, because "older cousin" ( 4 years old, ffs!) decided to whack her very soundly around the head with a toy and she had to have butterly stitches in her head. The cousin had ALWAYS been allowed to "act out" and basically do what he wanted... (this, according to SIL is the new "pedagogue"
way of allowing children to make their own decisionas) ?? and for a long time, my moaning to DH went no-where ... but on this occassion, the sight of quite a lot of blood pouring from our daughters head and down her face opened his eyes, finally! The cousin was asked by his mum ... "do you really think that was quite a nice thing to do?" he just continued ignoring his mum and running round the house like a mad thing. A bit of a family rift ensued, because DH and I "over-reacted". My advice is to find some new friends who don't share those uttertly idiotic beliefs, and who actually care a little bit about their childrens' behaviour. We found plenty and seriously curbed said horrid cousins visits, but also DH finally stepped up to the mark, and forbade the violent behaviour. (much to the shock and horror of the lazy mum and the horrid child). Sorry, but he had become "horrid" . Not his fault, entirely his stupid, lazy mothers' fault. Two years in, and he is in quite a lot of difficulty at school, cannot understand why it is not accepted that he just bashes any child (or teacher) who he disagrees with... nightmare. Just have to say, parents to said cousin are not dim-wits, fairly highly educated, but also fairly highly proud of their own views. I see them as failing that poor little boy terribly. Dont put up with it and don't subject your child to it! Tell them to go away, and find like-minded caring, parents who want to bring their children up to respect others. There honestly are plenty of them out there!! Good luck. xxxxxxx

Tgat makes sense Ikea, sounds like op friends do can't be bothered parenting.

YADNBU. I agree about the up all night parents constantly moaning about it. It's so BORING. I never got up for mine after 6 months unless they were ill (I'd check them obviously but not provide any contact with me at all), I just left them to cry it out. As a result, they're all brilliant sleepers now - I can hoover outside their open bedroom door and they don't stir.

As for this gentle parenting nonsense ... I had 'friends' like this when they were little, one even used to bite others including mine with him mum saying gently and quietly, "No Matthew, we don't bite, do we?" Erm, yes he bloody does lol.

I just changed friends in the end and was so much happier. I wasn't confident enough to tell other peoples children off, or even say things like 'we don't hit' so it was excruciating seeing my gentle son smacked, punched and bitten, especially as he was my first so I was more sensitive anyway.

You should just move on to a new crowd, that mums BF stories sound like they're driving you mental and the children aren't nice anyway. You really will feel so much better cutting ties. I even set my own playgroup up at the time because I was so mortified for my children.

The thing is that choosing to avoid the word no doesn't mean you choose to avoid the meaning of no - bear with me a sec - but yes actually, some gentle parenting sites do advocate not using "no" - because it's both generic (unspecific) and negative (grammatically, ie, tells them what to not do), and because sometimes we say no automatically, without really thinking about whether something is reasonable. BUT, the takeaway isn't just never have any boundaries, or never stop your children from doing annoying or dangerous things - the idea instead is to use other techniques and when verbal instruction is required, to use specific, positive instructions which tell the child what you WANT rather than what you don't want. It's really no more than the old "don't think about an elephant" psychology trick, or the parenting tip which says when you say to a child "Don't climb that" they won't register the don't and will instead hear/process "Climb that".

So instead of saying "No" to a child climbing on the sofa you could say "Come down from there" or "Sit down on the sofa please" (specific, positive) or you could state the expected behaviour: "If you want to be on the sofa, you need to sit down", or you might distract them by saying ooh look at this exciting toy , or if they were a particularly wordy and/or thoughtful child who is fairly easily persuaded, you might ask them to stop and have a conversation about the safety and/or sofa damaging implications, or you might just position yourself in the way and not let them up, or (especially if it's your own sofa) you might decide that it's not actually damaging the sofa and you're okay with the risk of them falling off, so choose to say nothing or have the conversation about safety and then trust them to decide.

Not every parent who follows gentle parenting will have got the whole message - and of course not everyone will actually avoid no. But certainly, for me, it made sense - if we only ever went around saying "No!" every time somebody had upset us or something went wrong, and we never actually discussed the issue or put things in place to counteract mistakes, then we wouldn't get very far - and I don't think it is a huge stretch to extend that to children.

I was sorely tempted to leap in with my usual rebel yell of "if you two don't stop that right now then we go straight home"....but wasn't sure she'd appreciate it....!

Lol this would have been my approach, I'm guessing I'm not a "gentle parent" either!

@Littlemissmuff I feel your pain.

I had a friend who gentle parented. Child got away with murder her whole life and in the end we stopped being friends at end of primary school over how she let her DD treat mine. 7 years of watching her actively raise a brat (sorry but that’s the only word to describe her). Child became a nasty excluding bully.

But Karma is now working her magic as child (now in high school) says “no” herself often. Mostly no to going to school or doing anything she’s asked.

I should feel bad for her but I saw her raise her child to feel that rules don’t apply to her so imo it’s justice.

I see them as failing that poor little boy terribly.

I think this too. There's a lady in our village who is into "gentle parenting". Her little boy is actually very sweet - he just doesn't have the same boundaries and good manners and social skills that other kids his age have had drummed into them by now. As a result, people don't react very well to him. And I think he must, on some level, be aware of that - but won't be mature enough to understand why. I do wonder if that causes problems for kids psychologically, or if that feeling of not being "warmed to" stays with them later on? So I agree that his parents, despite their very best intentions, have failed him - because they've arguably failed to provide him with the basic social tools he'll need as he goes through life.

My sister does this. Sits and watches her kids wreck furniture, pull things off, throw things around. She doesn't say no and doesn't even seem to register it. It drives me absolutely mad. If I say 'no' I am glared at.

I'm with you OP
To echo others, this isn't gentle parenting, I don't actually think it's lazy parenting, it's fearful parenting. I've got some fab friends who I just have to avoid getting together with as it's just too difficult. Their children can be really horrible, snatching, hitting, pushing, holding doors shut while other children are in there, mahoosive tantrums if parents say no (or 'we don't do that!'), said parents then bribing with treats or giving them what they want to shut them up
/stop a tantrum etc.

I'm by no means perfect and I know my friends think I'm too strict, but, if I've said no, I mean it, any bad behaviour is communicated to my children appropriately, no, not by shouting, actually gently but firmly telling them why it's wrong and following up with 'naughty step' or 'time out' if needed and regardless of whether they are having a tantrum.

Same with night time, close friends have never had a full nights sleep, children sleep in their bed (6, 4 and 3 years old) most nights, come in at 3 am demanding a bottle (yes, that's the 4 year old!) and they get it.

Reason being? They simply can't face a tantrum or tears if they upset their child by enforcing boundaries.

It's not my way or the highway, and I'd never dream of preaching perfect parenting (as there's no such thing!) however, mine sleep through and always have, they are rarely badly behaved and have good morals and are caring/understand consequences and have empathy.

My friends children are regularly very badly behaved and many people now avoid having them over like the plague.

I feel for you op, I just tend to say exactly what others say 'we don't do that in this house' and if we're out and my children want to climb a fence or pick things of shelves and make noise and run and scream in a supermarket because their friends are I simply do the firm 'no, we aren't allowed to do that' and on the 'but they're doing it' I say, 'I'm not their mummy, these are my rules for you to follow' They don't argue as they know I mean business and are generally well behaved!

I think I would say in respect of the moaning about breastfeeding in the night "sounds really hard - what can you do about it?" If she says there's nothing she can do then I'd say "Well I guess then that is the choice you have made" and change the subject.
Re the children, honestly I would stop the playdates saying that I don't feel my child is safe in that situation. They are then free to gentle parent away on their own, and you won't worry about your little one getting hurt.
I have to be honest and say I would be finding other friends.....

I think part of the problem is parents who forget (or don't want to remember!) that their purpose is to bring up their children to be able to function successfully in society once those parents are gone - it ISN'T to be their best friend. A good parent should want what is best for their child in the long run, rather than what makes them popular with the child.

It's like parents who indulge their children with every single thing they want; one day that child will grow up and need to support themselves, without parents giving them everything & have to live on whatever income they get for themselves.

Exactly why their kids are little brats. One thing that grates on my nerves. My kids are fairly well behaved when out apart from the odd comment about something or other they generally entertain themselves, no shouting or screaming. They have been like that since they were toddlers. Several times I’ve been grocery shopping and seen kids acting like total brats and all you hear from the parents is “ oh darling don’t do that’ which clearly doesn’t work as you can still hear the child throwing a tantrum 5 minutes later. In my opinion gentle parenting is bull shit as the child believes they can push and push and still your talking to them normally so they think they are being normal. I’m a pretty laid back Mum and my daughter tri3s to test me but she knows when I’m being serious. My son is very laid back and I barely have any issues. I get a little attitude here and their mixed with some sarcasm ( which he got from me) but pretty much good. He is on the autism spectrum so we have a meltdown maybe once every few months but nothing we can’t manage. Parenting is a tricky one. Both my parents were laid back but my bfs mum was very strict so both have a few different opinions on certain things. He’s getting better because he says he don’t wanna be like his Mum whom he did not get on with. With him out to work most of the time and my mum looking after the kids whilst I’m a work in the morning they are being brought up the way I was brought up. But I don’t mind, I have 2 bright clever children who are healthy and have a great sense of humour, they’ve been brought up with the same morals and principles. People do hav the right to parent how they wish but don’t have the right to complain when it blows up in there’s face in the future.

Genuinely puzzled - what happens when they go to school and get told no? Do the parents complain to the teachers?

Yes, pretty much. They're usually referred to as 'that parent'. They'll generally complain about everything their little darling gets upset about and the teacher will be tortured with 'that parents' complaints. It's the same parents that usually complain when their little darlings don't get starring roles in the nativities and plays or who don't move up reading levels quickly enough for the parents liking.

I GP and my child has boundaries, he's not a brat and is pretty well behaved for a three year old. This is not GP.

The world has gone crazy and I'm scared for the future generations because of the latest parenting techniques that seem to be out there!
I split up with my ex when our son was 1 and ever since he's moddycoddled my son, made excuses for him when he's done things wrong, told him his teacher was a bully when we were called in about his attitude, undermined me constantly, never given him consequences etc so fast forward to now.. ds is almost 13 and I'm having a horrendous time with him at the moment. He's lovely until he's told no or asked to do something he doesn't want to. He's constantly losing important things, lies, blames others, kicks off when there's consequences, treats me with contempt because I've always been consistent and given fair consequences. I spoke to social services and other authorities for support who told me kids are different nowadays and I'm too strict... because I take my son's phone off him if he doesn't do his homework or limit his time on computer if it's affecting what he should be doing. I've been told to go on parenting courses to learn to deal with things differently!! At school if he misses his homework deadline and they just give him an extra 2 days to do it! He's in for a big shock when he starts work and has to stick to deadlines and can't refuse to do certain tasks!

'Gentle parenting' isn't about letting your kids run wild as so many parents I know seem to believe.

I think we all Gentle Parent to some extent but to refuse to utter the word no to a child is just fucking stupid.

Children need boundaries, whether you want to lay them out in an airy fairy way or shout them, they need them.

Some of the behaviour that has been told by posters on this thread amounts to neglect - pure and simple.