to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

[churchoflego]

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

Accept that there are people who will be more wary of him, and that the police are more likely to judge him.

Why would you teach your child to accept racism?

Hecky

To keep them safe. Same as we are forced to teach our daughters not to walk home alone at night. Although you missed this bit from Bertram’s post, funnily enough. It’s almost like you’re trying to detract from the point because you don’t have a better arguement.

And help him develop strategies to deal with all of those things. And perhaps help him to be an advocate for reducing knife crime among his peers?

'Let's get to work fixing the problems' is the right approach, but perhaps I am being unduly negative, it's also very naive (not a criticism).
Maybe I am part of the problem because I think the task is absolutely daunting and we don't really fully understand the causes of the problem yet, let alone go about fixing them.

It's a bit of a paradox that we (society) are likely both the cause and the solution.

As well as learning all the things we are doing wrong, it would be helpful to hear some of the things we are doing right. Sometimes, we really aren't sure as some of our well intentioned attempts to improve things are wide of the mark.

specific social circumstances (poverty, lack of opportunity, oppression etc)

Here, again, pumper are the social circumstances mentioned.

Teaching your daughters not to walk home at night isn't the same as teaching black children to accept racism. A similar lesson would be to teach girls to accept that some men will think they're lesser than them and to then teach them strategies to deal with that.

I picked out that part of the post because I disagreed with it. I think teaching black kids to deal with racism is very different to teaching them to accept it.

How is raising our children not to commit crimes making the circumstance worse?

To be fair to him/her, that's not what they said or (to my mind implied).
I think they were trying to say that we (society) are still very much fuelling the circumstances that give rise to violence through social inequality, sexual objectification and countless other factors).

Honestly don't think they were suggesting teaching children that violence is wrong is making things worse, precisely the opposite.

Sometimes, we really aren't sure as some of our well intentioned attempts to improve things are wide of the mark.

Quality healthcare works.
Quality education works.
Reduced levels of poverty work.
Safe, quality housing works.
Opportunity works.

That didn’t answer my question make.

Hecky I don’t know what to say to you. You’re obviously looking for a fight - possibly about word choice? - and I don’t have the time or inclination to have that fight with you, sorry.

Hecky, I think it's the same.

We teach our daughters to walk home safely because we accept there ARE dangers out there. That is not the same as believing the dangers are acceptable.

We accept that racism exists and teach our children about it, again, it's not the same saying racism is acceptable.

Disagreeing with a point on a thread where people are debating an issue isn't looking for a fight.

You picked out my reply to someone else's post. If you don't want to debate no one is making you.

“I think teaching black kids to deal with racism is very different to teaching them to accept it.”

There is a difference between accepting racism and accepting that racism exists.

Sorry Brilliant - so make meant by pointing out that men commit 76% of violence that makes them likely to do it more?

*Hecky, I think it's the same.

We teach our daughters to walk home safely because we accept there ARE dangers out there. That is not the same as believing the dangers are acceptable.*

We accept that racism exists and teach our children about it, again, it's not the same saying racism is acceptable.

That makes more sense.

There is a difference between accepting racism and accepting that racism exists.

Sorry, I misunderstood your meaning before. So more like saying to black kids "some people will judge you because of the colour of your skin, they are wrong to do that, but here's how to deal with it safely."

That makes sense to me.

Make, yes those work, but in order to get 'reduced levels of poverty' we have to make policies, and it's those that we have to decide which works and which doesn't.

In order to get 'opportunity', we have to develop strategies and figure which ones work and which don't.

However, in this instance, I was referring to men in general. We have to learn which of our attempts to become better men (to improve how we co-exist with women) help, and which don't. I think most men want to bridge the gap between men and women without ceasing to be a man. I don't want any woman to ever feel threatened by me (or vice versa). I believe we co-exist to enjoy each other.

so make meant by pointing out that men commit 76% of violence that makes them likely to do it more?

Ultimately yes. I as a man, have to accept that I am male and that (statistically) makes me more likely to resort to violence than it does a woman. But we have to be very careful about how we apply this statistic, as the majority of men aren't violent.
If I fill a pub full of men and women in equal proportion, and someone carries our a violent crime, I have to accept that I am in the group (males) that will likely have the perpetrator. If I were the police and had to catch the perpetrator rapidly, I'd have no qualms in rounding up all the men first - but I suspect I might open up another can of worms with that statement.

I've noticed that the thread's sort of focussed on violence, but it includes sexual attitudes too (which is another complex area), and of course, there's the domineering / superiority complex that men have. I am not saying that women can't have it too, but you only need to look at the hierarchy of most workplaces to see that male dominance is still rife.

I had this debate earlier on another thread, it went sour quickly, so reluctant to bring it up on this one too!

Brilliant this has been done to death. Nobody is saying ‘all men are violent*. Nobody. And by arguing that made-up point, it takes discussion away from ‘what can be done about male violence?’.

You asked specifically about a stat that 76% of violence is via men, and you asked me to comment on it. I did.

I didn't present the stat.

Nor have I argued that point. Can you please show me where I have?

What? Make said it (it being that we’re adding to the problem by using the stat) - you said I’d misunderstood. I hadn’t, I just thought it was a ridiculous thing to say.

I'd have no qualms in rounding up all the men first

But does his change if you round up the black men first?

Make: Why are we making these social circumstances worse (and we damnsure are) and expecting that a good talking to is going to fix it?

You: How is raising our children not to commit crimes making the circumstance worse?

I replied to that, that you had misunderstood his point, and you had. His point was NOT that teaching children not to commit crimes was making it worse, his point was that as a society, we are are still enabling circumstances that promote violence, and quite possible making them even worse with increased social inequality.

Hopefully we are on the same page now?

What? Make said it (it being that we’re adding to the problem by using the stat) - you said I’d misunderstood. I hadn’t, I just thought it was a ridiculous thing to say.

What did I say?

And then I said:

Sorry Brilliant - so make meant by pointing out that men commit 76% of violence that makes them likely to do it more?

And you replied:

Ultimately yes

And I then said ‘that’s ridiculous, and been done to death’.