to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

[churchoflego]

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

I do apologise

Im on page 23 so replying to that point

(Honestly though i thought i had it last night...i don't understand how the phrase statistically men are more violent is wrong)

The problem with the NAMALT argument is, as others have pointed out, the men who commit violent acts against women and girls are all husbands, brothers or sons. It leads to women saying to themselves or others, 'My husband/son/brother would never do something like that.' And so when their daughter or a friend's daughter discloses that they have been abused, they likely to refuse to believe it and accuse them of lying.

The other thing it leads to is women blaming the victims of DV and rape for what happened to them. 'She provoked him.'

Obviously we all know that not all men will commit violent acts, and not even the majority. But a hell of a lot do, and in all these cases there will be a mother or wife or sister who doesn't want to believe they could ever be capable of that.

And to add to my post about my ds, if we were a black family living in London, I would as sure as hell be using the fact that he is a member of the class that commits most knife crime to inform the way I brought him up.

It's about facing up to reality, basically. I don't have DSs but I have 6 DNephews, and would hope that they are learning to respect women. I get some chances to influence my 17 year old DN, who is a Facebook friend and when he makes stupid comments about women's issues, I gently but firmly correct him.

We have the responsibility to teach the boys in our lives.

I do understand your further points forest

Class: men - commits most crime

Category: disenfranchised young men - commits most of crime

Group: disenfranchised young black men - makes up a large part of the category due to being disproportionally disenfranchised by institutional racism.

Outwardly it may seem that the statement "young black males commit most crime" is correct.

Anyone with half a brain cell can see that the fact that these young black males are disproportionally represented in a certain group due to the way that they are treated within the class of males as a whole.

So "young black males commit most crime" is actually an incredibly simplistic way of defining the problem and is usually only used by racists who wish to absolve themselves from any responsibility for the disenfranchisement of young black males in a society that is geared to prioritise (old) white males

(I am using category and group as placeholders in this example, but I know our resident racist MRA will use it to discredit this. So be it. I do't talk to MRAs and I definitely don't talk to racist MRAs.)

BertrandRussell
if we were a black family living in London, I would as sure as hell be using the fact that he is a member of the class that commits most knife crime to inform the way I brought him up.

Yes, accept that people like Bertrand are judging you solely because of the colour of your skin and for this reason alone, they class you together with violent criminals.

ForestDad if you were female they would probably be nicer to you, sadly! sad i do not see any women getting picked on here on this thread

I havent been mean to anyone on this thread...i can fucking start if you like

I generally give everybody the benefit of the doubt and any snark is directed at anyone who 'deserves' it

What sad is that you can tell by my posts what page and post I'm on

Im not reading slowly

Im supposedly getting ready to out and i keep sneaking down stairs

well hasn't this thread gone on and on
I am class

I also have never said that I was blaming women or girls for male violence.

wish people would actually read people's opinions and posts with an open mind instead of assuming their own crappy theories

this has turned into a whole load of bollocks

Exactly Lizzie, and given most men are at some point in their lives, husbands/sons/uncles etc you are then by default ignoring an extremely large percentage of the male class, who, despite the discomfort it gives us, are probably perpetrating, ignoring, or (in)directly benefiting from male violence and the disparity between treatment of men and women. That's not to say they are not also harmed, patriarchy is in many ways damaging to men too, but I can only assume the balance is still swayed enough in favour of males as to not address it.

I think what’s ForestDad did - attempted to minimise the extent of male violence, refused to admit it, accused me of being a hypocrite, refused to acknowledge that, made a statement, refused to clarify, accused me of ‘deliberately missunderstanding’ - was worse than a PP using caps and low-level bad language. Although I acknowledge that he at least attempted to engage with the thread.

It’s a weird thing to announce ‘I’m a man, here’s my wrong facts’ then two minutes later when proved wrong ‘you’re all horrible just because I’m a man’ - like being a man makes you both the authority and victim. That happens a lot here, that’s not just a dig at Forest.

wish people would actually read people's opinions and posts with an open mind instead of assuming their own crappy theories

Which crappy theories? The idea that how I raise my daughter has no impact whatsoever on male violence?

“Yes, accept that people like Bertrand are judging you solely because of the colour of your skin and for this reason alone, they class you together with violent criminals.”

No. Accept that he will be more likely to have someone in his peer group who has a knife. Accept that there are people who will be more wary of him, and that the police are more likely to judge him. And help him develop strategies to deal with all of those things. And perhaps help him to be an advocate for reducing knife crime among his peers?

I think there is a script out there for parents of black kids isn't there? Some guidelines?

Parent: Son, you may have noticed your skin is....well....sort of brown. Now in Africa you would fit right in, but here in London, well you are a little browner than the average. Or something, let's move on...

Kid: I'm not sure what you are saying...

Parent: Anyhow, you may know that knife crime is a problem in the city....that and scooter crime...

Kid: I don't like scooters.

Parent: Please, stay focused. Anyhow, being black you may get the urge to stab someone some day, and I just think...

Kid: But...

Parent: Statistically speaking you may get the urge to stab...

Kid: I have a paper due tomorrow, I better get started.

Parent: Just keep it in mind...

Ta-Nehisi Coates puts this much better in 'Between the World and Me' - it's nothing to do with 'getting the urge to stab'.

Pretending to a black son that his blackness isn't relevant in London would be misguided.

make I’ve totally missed your point. I’m doing know enough about racial profiles of perpetrators of knife crime so I won’t be pretending I do.

I do know that men are more likely to be violent though. So a conversation with my son might go ‘so and so hit me’ and instead of saying ‘hit him/her back’ I’d say ‘tell the teacher/ phone the police’ - so that my son is also not guilty of violence.

Another more trivial point - we live next to a large canal network. Children and teenagers are regularly pulled out of the canal because they try to jump over it or swim in it. I tell my children ‘do not go in the canal, ever, under any circumstances, even if all your friends are doing it’ - because I know children and teenagers are likely to experience peer pressure. I teach my children about things that are likely to cause danger to them, as well as doing the absolute best I can to stop them causing danger to others. I thought that was fairly basic parenting.

I think Bertrams point was fairly obvious, I’m not sure why you’re trying to take the piss.

That first line should say ‘I don’t know enough about racial profiles of perpetrators of knife crime’.

Most violence is carried out by men, but most men do not carry out violence. This is the same situation as young black men and specific types of crime.

The problem we non-violent men have to accept is that a woman cannot differentiate which type of man we are, or might become. All she knows is that we have the capacity to be violent, so it takes trust on her part, and understanding on ours.

Even with the trust, there is always the 'possibility' we might become violent. I don't know that can ever be resolved until men evolve without the potential for violence (it may never happen).

Given that it's unlikely to ever happen, we are going to have to work out a way of managing it, and helping men control it / channel it in some other way. We also can't ignore the nurture aspect of this too, where young boys are somehow shaped into violent men. That is one hell of a complex area, but if we're ever going to change it, it's going to need men and women working together, not against.

People are looking at the knife crime example the wrong way (imo).

It's not that young black males are predisposed to be more likely to commit a given crime, it's that society has many crimes, and they are more likely to manifest themselves or 'break out' in specific social circumstances (poverty, lack of opportunity, oppression etc). The parents of a young black male in London will be well aware of this, and know that their son is more at risk due to being exposed to those social conditions. He is likely to face peer pressure, and also just likely to suffer from many of the characteristics that COULD lead him to resort to violence.
Almost every parent I know worries when their children go on a night out drinking because we know they are exposed to increased levels of danger (and also capable of being idiots themselves). I would imagine it's the same for parents in a deprived inner city, only on a daily basis, even on their way to school.

Any particular reason you're being a dick, makeourfuture ? Nature? Nurture? Hormones?

It's not that young black males are predisposed to be more likely to commit a given crime, it's that society has many crimes, and they are more likely to manifest themselves or 'break out' in specific social circumstances (poverty, lack of opportunity, oppression etc).

Yes, I understand that.

Why are we making these social circumstances worse (and we damnsure are) and expecting that a good talking to is going to fix it?

Any particular reason you're being a dick, makeourfuture

We are in this together. Let's get to work fixing the problems.

"We are in this together. Let's get to work fixing the problems."

You could have fooled me. Your response to my post was completely unacceptable.

Why are we making these social circumstances worse (and we damnsure are) and expecting that a good talking to is going to fix it?

How is raising our children not to commit crimes making the circumstance worse?