to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

[churchoflego]

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

Because of feminists today calling out all the horrible things men as a class do, it's less likely that my DS will end up as a violent/entitled/prejudiced adult

If we want our sons to grow up to be decent men, we need to tell them about male violence and toxic masculinity.

If we call it out now, we make the world better for everyone.

I've got daughters and i hate the way people speak about girls. Girls are bitchy, horrible, manipulative, drama queens, always falling out. I wouldn't mind if people said "some girls are.." rather than "girls are.." I've seen people say "boys sort things out with their fists and then forget about it whereas girls hold grudges". As if sorting things out with your fists is a positive thing.!

What's really depressing is that some people can't tell the difference between class analysis and hate.

+1!

I have an amazing DS, DH, DF and had a beyond amazing DGF who have never treated me as anything but an equal, or ever laid a hand on me. Doesn't change the fact that men, as a gender as a whole, are responsible for a hell of a lot of violence and shit that I, and all women, have to struggle against on a daily basis.

The men in my life understand that and are determined not to add to it, as are many men.

What's really depressing and scary is we still live in a world where 2 women a week are killed by a male partner or former partner

^^ exactly. The thread should be "i'm sick of 2 women per week being murdered by male partners or former partners"

Because of feminists today calling out all the horrible things men as a class do, it's less likely that my DS will end up as a violent/entitled/prejudiced adult

Oh dear. I read that as more not less and typed an enormous rant... thank goodness I re-read before pressing 'post'!

It's really hard not to be influenced sometimes. I am not a man / boy hater, but when I scrolled through the news on my phone last night and the first few stories were about:

• the news reporter tortured and murdered on an inventors submarine

• a young woman stabbed to death in the car park outside her gym by her jilted ex boyfriend

• a 15 year old American girl shot by her ex....

then I do find myself feeling frustration and something else a bit more potent and negative

Was thinking this myself OP. Sick to death of negativity - my sons are guilty just because their boys. Assume the worst of them. Ignore that they are being raised with the same standards expected for girls, that they are being taught to be respectful of everybody regardless of anything. But that's not good enough, just because they're boys.

*they're

You’ve got to call out what you see. That’s all you can do. I’ve never seen anything in any respectable public forum that accuses all men of anything. If you extrapolate ‘all men’ from the names Jimmy Saville, Harvey Weinstein, etc or feel that we should not hold those men to account so your sons feel better, that’s just not an acceptable position.

Where are you reading all this material that talks about all men?

Doesn't change the fact that men, as a gender as a whole, are responsible for a hell of a lot of violence and shit that I, and all women, have to struggle against on a daily basis.

Yep

YADNBU.

Why do we describe males as "a class" and not a sex?

Was thinking this myself OP. Sick to death of negativity - my sons are guilty just because their boys. Assume the worst of them. Ignore that they are being raised with the same standards expected for girls, that they are being taught to be respectful of everybody regardless of anything. But that's not good enough, just because they're boys.

Kindly point out where anyone has said that.

The entire world is catered to men.

The really depressing thing is that men could change everything for the better today if they wanted to. It would be really easy. But they don't seem to want to.

I'm embarrassed to admit I've never come across 'Class' analysis used in this way before. It's a useful term to know.

Is this a reaction to all the #metoo stuff, all those powerful men in the entertainment, political and other sectors being exposed for the sexist arseholes, abusers and rapists they are?

If you're looking at that and wibbling on about the poor men in your own life who have nothing to do with it, I put it to you that your priorities are completely skewed.

It's not hate to name a problem. If men as a class (or group, or indeed sex) did not do this, nobody would have to point it out.

pecan why is that relevant where I have experienced this. The fact is I have, and that needs to be good enough I'm afraid. But honestly, if you can't see it then you're too blinded to see it, I'm afraid.

Kindly point out where anyone has said that.

It’s all over Mumsnet. If a person has a penis, they are guilty. Look at he different advice given on relationship threads where the stories are the same but the genders are reversed - the man is far more often assumed to be the one in the wrong regardless of which side of the story he’s on.

menz This word just makes the person using it sound like an idiot.

I am with you OP, but to be honest, I don't meet that hatred in real life. It's only on this forum and a few other online places that I see such an attitude.

Thankfully most people in real life has a much healthier attitude, so I am not too worried about my sons.

all I read is how white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan

What on earth are you reading?

victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/

My DH is awesome. I'm proud of him for calling out a colleague for harassment. He realises what the issue is, and increasingly has noticed the difference in how he is treated compared to me.

It is the consequence of male privilege where the balance of power rests with men who as individuals often have more influence and ability to call out their fellow men, than a collective group of women.

He doesn't like that responsibility, but he understood why he had it effectively dumped on him.

why is that relevant where I have experienced this. The fact is I have, and that needs to be good enough I'm afraid. But honestly, if you can't see it then you're too blinded to see it, I'm afraid.

Not sure I'm the blind one here.

Do you disagree that two women a week are murdered by a male partner or former partner? Is that a lie?

Do you disagree with the fact women are paid less than men for doing the same job? Is that a lie?

Do you disagree with the fact that young girls the world over are subjected to FGM?

Do you disagree that male suicide rates are high because of the culture of toxic masculinity which embodies our society?

Do you disagree that, even now, even in households where both parents are working, that the majority of women still take on the responsibility of the domestic work and childcare?

It is the responsibility of ALL men to challenge the above and that is what I will be encouraging my son to do.

Just as, as a white middle class woman, it's my responsibility to realise that I am afforded a position of privilege in society because of my skin colour and to recognise that gives me opportunities which others may not have.

Dh and ds are awesome people, the kind I wish we saw everywhere. Sadly, they are wonderful despite rather than because of the men they're surrounded by (and yes I know there are exceptions).

They are surrounded by every day sexism and peer pressure and we are having to fight tooth and nail to raise our ds free from the misconceptions that have blighted society for centuries.

Purely by way of example, bil regularly says things like "you scream/ play football/ fight/ whatever like a girl". He is not in a minority in this. Just read a thread about consent and what constitutes rape and the ignorance still spouted by the majority of men is incredibly depressing.

I love the men in my life with my whole heart because they hold similar beliefs and values to everything I hold dear. But I don't deceive myself that they represent men generally. I hope they continue to go against the grain and challenge others, for my daughter's sake. Because men generally have shown that they won't listen to what women think, hopefully the message will be understood better from one of their own.

I agree that we can't do this by alienating men, but equally we must be allowed to speak freely and call it exactly as it is. I wish there were more male advocates of feminism. It might be our only chance of real change.

@BertrandRussell "The really depressing thing is that men could change everything for the better today if they wanted to. It would be really easy. But they don't seem to want to."

Why would they want to? Give up all that lovely power and advantage? Sadly I think it's human nature to want to stay in control, there's not enough altruism to bring about change.