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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

710 replies

churchoflego · 24/01/2018 09:55

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 28/01/2018 00:18

I've heard you. I understand that you have no problem calling any group a class. But you still have not explained how a class differs from a group.

Why does that matter so much to you? I don’t know the answer, I’d happily use them both. If it’s so important to you that you have a concrete definition then have a google.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 00:22

Pumperthepumper
I don’t know the answer
Yup. That is exactly what I had concluded several hours ago. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

Pumperthepumper · 28/01/2018 00:25

What? One poster says a class isn’t a group and you post the same question twenty times and refuse to engage with the actual content of the thread and now I’m the time waster? Are you serious?

OnTheList · 28/01/2018 00:26

But you still have not explained how a class differs from a group.

I don't think it does? Not in my understanding of class and group anyway

Pumperthepumper · 28/01/2018 00:29

And Francine that wasn’t the question you were asking several hours ago - the only question then was ‘is X minority group a class then?’ ‘What about Y minority group?’

And having to point out several times that you’re not a racist.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 00:29

Pumper you just very helpfully admitted even though it was TOTALLY obvious that you use phrases without knowing what they mean.

Pumperthepumper · 28/01/2018 00:33

I know what class analysis is, I don’t know the difference between ‘class’ and ‘group’, I didn’t think there was one. I was trying to help you understand, you weirdo.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 00:35

OK I realise that you are supposed to be the clever ones.

I will try to be crystal clear. My definition of prejudice, bias (including racism) is to judge an entire group on the basis of data that applies to some. It would be racist to say "blacks as a group" that is why I don't say it. And if you want to shut me up by calling me a racist - I will repeat, I am white, my husband is not. I have three mixed race children.

OnTheList · 28/01/2018 00:36

Men as a class commit almost all violence

Men as a group commit almost all violence

Same difference to me.

With NAMALT disclaimer, as I expect that to come up next.

Pumperthepumper · 28/01/2018 00:40

Francine you’ve been incredibly rude on this thread. I’m absolutly not getting into yet another discussion with you about class analysis, it’s been explained to you enough times. If you don’t understand it, fine, but it’s time to either learn it or engage properly with the thread.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 00:40

Pumperthepumper
I don’t know the difference between class and group. I didn’t think there was one....you weirdo

Always entertaining to see such vehemently help opinions presented by someone who so eloquent admits they don't what they've actually saying.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 00:41

Been saying

Pumperthepumper · 28/01/2018 00:48

Francine you’re right. I apologise for calling you a weirdo. That was uncalled for. It’s late and I’m tired, and this is quite an emotive thread. I apologise.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 00:49

I thought the whole justification of using the phrase "as a class" made a distinction from the bias, bigotry and judgment that assumes that all members of a "group" were as "bad as each other" (my words) because of the actions / behaviour of some members of that group.

So would it be OK for me to say for example "Arabs as a group (or class???) are far more likely to renege on commercial deals and not pay their invoices because this has been my experience in 100% of my dealings with Arabs over the last four years"

I don't think it would be.

Pumperthepumper · 28/01/2018 00:54

Francine’please stop asking the same question using a different racial stereotype each time. It’s offensive and it’s been explained to you enough times. If you seriously think that everyone using class analysis on this thread is being bigoted then report them.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 00:59

I do respect you for admitting that you don't know and I thank you for your honesty.

If "group" is, in fact, used interchangeably with "class" then it is a recipe for condemning an entire population the despicable actions of some (which i believe this was the basis of the entire thread).

I would call out someone for saying "Women as a 'group' are far more likely to xyz" so I will do the same if I heard someone say "Black people as a group"

Pumperthepumper · 28/01/2018 01:00

Ok, you’re still being rude to me I see. I think that’s the end of my interaction with you now.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 01:03

No. I didn't call you playground. I accept your apology. I respect you for admitting that you didn't understand the distinction between group and class.

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 01:04

Playground names

OnTheList · 28/01/2018 01:27

Women as a group are for more likely to be the victims of sexual violence.

Women as a class are more likely than men to be involved in the sex industry.

Genuinely not seeing the issue with using group or class when talking about certain issues.

TheBrilliantMistake · 28/01/2018 02:07

It's clear as day that men perpetrate the overwhelming percentage of violence, not just towards women, but to other men too.
There may be some biological predisposition that, but there is almost certainly a lot of social conditioning too. That social conditioning is happening through society as a whole - men and women.

I wouldn't want people to think it's apologist to say 'there's a reason', more that if we can deduce the reason(s) and start to change them, then there is hope that men might behave differently. That's not make us any less 'manly' (whatever that means), just make us more less threatening to ourselves, to women, to children.
The world is full of very decent men, almost all of whom have the capacity to become violent with the right triggers. Most of them never become violent, but there is no doubting as half of the human species, we are the most threatening.

Women have their own traits, and they aren't without problems of their own, but those are far less a threat that man's behaviour right now. I don't know how helpful it really is to constantly be reminded about how violent we are as a 'class'. But there's no doubt that we DO need reminding.

Truth be told, as a class, I think we need help, serious help. I don't believe we are predisposed to be as bad as we are, and other cultures can at least offer improved male behaviour. There's hope.

The phrase 'don't you guys get it' crops up a lot. And evidently no, we don't 'get it' a lot of the time. Perhaps we are a little dense, perhaps we are a little ignorant, but maybe too, the delivery of the message has to come in a way that men can better understand.

But above all this, we may belong to a 'class', but we are still individuals. When a man says 'women are...' it depersonalises them. It's the same with 'men are...'

I don't think most are men haters, I think most hate what men can do.

TheBrilliantMistake · 28/01/2018 02:13

A class has a shared characteristic.
A group may have a shared characteristic, but need not have. The group is not based on the shared characteristic, that's by chance.

Tall people is a class.
Angry men is a class.
Bill, Sarah and the rowing boat is a group.

Things can be in more than one class and more than one group.

BertrandRussell · 28/01/2018 06:52

To go back to the statement that Afro Caribbean boys commit more knife crime in London than anyone else. If that is factually true, and if you are analyzing knife crime in London, then they are a class. If you are looking at all violent crime nationally then race ceases to have statistical signifance, but sex does. The “Afro Caribbean boys” become subsumed into the wider class of “men”. Does that help?

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 07:08

A class has a shared characteristic.
A group may have a shared characteristic, but need not have

That's a clearer distinction. But when it comes to violence against women, what is the characteristic shared by men (whether they are violent or not)?

When men come on to the Feminist pages of MN asking questions like "What do Feminists think of ...." they get flamed for assuming that feminist are a homogeneous group that speak and act with one collective voice and conscience (like the Borg).

If you take a characteristic of a "group" - because it is statistically more likely and then project on to the entire group (making it a 'class') - isn't that just stereotyping - and therefore the root of prejudice?

The Nazis did hundreds thousands of measurements of the noses of Jewish people and had (in their minds) clear, statistical "evidence" that Jews were a class (based on this and other twisted, irrelevant and unfair interpretations of "shared characteristics").

FrancinePefko · 28/01/2018 07:13

BertrandRussell
Afro Caribbean boys commit more knife crime in London than anyone else. If that is factually true, and if you are analyzing knife crime in London, then they are a class

So I should accept that my sons are more likely to be stopped and searched because they are a "class" - even though they they have neer committed a crime in their lives or been violent to anyone, never carried a knife?

You're saying I should just accept that? I'm more than a little Hmm that people here thought I was the racist!!