to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

[churchoflego]

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

"Crime is mostly committed by men not most men commit crime. Sometimes I think the distinction gets lost." Exactly - that kind of misunderstanding of any kind of quantifiable action is the bane of social media commentary .

It's as ridiculous to argue that men as a "class" need to be held to account for "toxic masculinity" or certain crimes

People dont say that, they say men need to do more to speak out against male violence.
For example, they could do more to support domestic violence shelters and Rape Crisis, instead of leaving to to women to fundraise for them.
They could speak out against the tampon tax.
They could speak out against prostitution. Studies show that men are less likely to visit a prostitute if they believe a man they look up to might find out. They care more about that than believing she was trafficked.

Until men stop enabling violent abusive men, male violence wont change, and YABU.

www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Actually it is catered to white men

Yes, agreed.

I'm actually in full on despair at some of the comments on this thread. Do you people genuinely believe that because I recognise that male violence is a problem (for MEN as well as women btw), that means that I think all men are violent and I hate them?

If so you're beyond help tbh.

Can someone give examples of this hate that men and boys are experiencing?

Is this just a reaction to women speaking out about the abuse they have suffered at the hands of men?

And I absolutely DO hold men accountable btw when they don't speak out.

Look at how many men are mates with abusive or just plain sexist men and don't call them out on it, ever.

The terrorist/muslim thing has been mentioned numerous times but the fact remains that actually the common ingredient binding terrorists together, of whatever belief system, is that by and large they are all male.

Actually it is catered to white men, just look at Trump and numerous other mediocre, unattractive (as this is always used against women), unfit men. Could a woman or a POC be all of those things and get even half as far??^^ For example look at the racist and sexist abuse that say Mrs Obama, Megan Markle and Diane Abbot get! They are not mediocre, nor unattractive, but the exact opposite yet the trolls come out hunting when these women are in the public.

Yes, Obama (a black man) was the President of the most powerful country on earth for 8 years. Oprah Winfrey (a black woman) is one of the most powerful and influential women in America. Plenty of white, male public figures receive racist/sexist/offensive insults all the time, in fact anyone, whatever colour or sex will be exposed to vitriol if they are in the public eye and have an easily contactable/commentable online presence.

Oh I see OP, we should feel sorry for white people as well as men. Gotcha.

Agree OP.

I have been bullied by far more women than men. My DS was bullied by girls.

Women put women down, ( BBC report today I think?), and women attack older women, perceived rivals, "friends" and MiLs.

(Was on a thread today where a woman - supported by other female posters - wanted to drop a friend because the woman had lost weight and the OP feared she'd make a move on her husband. Really??)

The problem with male violence is a society problem - not a factor of men being evil. We need to sort out society as a whole. Treat men with respect, (and a lot of us don't), teach our sons to respect women - work with men, and really come down hard on the ones who are violent and we'll see an improvement.

The problem with male violence is a society problem - not a factor of men being evil. We need to sort out society as a whole. Treat men with respect, (and a lot of us don't), teach our sons to respect women - work with men, and really come down hard on the ones who are violent and we'll see an improvement.

Yet it is a society problem. Because we live in a patriarchal society.

NO. ONE. HAS. SAID. MEN. ARE. EVIL.

Sorry rest - just re read and I misunderstood your point. Apologies.

Oh I see OP, we should feel sorry for white people as well as men. Gotcha.

Of course, we shouldn't feel sorry for white people, they are all naturally guilty by virtue of their skin colour .

When was the last time a woman stabbed a man to death?

When was the last time a woman was found to be holding a young man as a sex slave in her basement for 20 years?

When was the last time a woman went on a rampage with a gun, killing innocent people in the street?

When was the last time there was a scandle about women abusing their power to sexually abuse men and boys?

When was the last time a famous woman sexually abused/raped a man but is still celebrated by the media?

When was the last time you were on an Internet forum and a man said something like "women are asking for it" and another man said "hey, you can't say that, it's not ALL women"?

When was the last time you saw a women threaten to rape or murder a man just for sharing his (non violent) opinion online?

Again, I ask, can we have examples of this hate men and boys are experiencing from women?

We seem to be less and less able to speak the truth proven by statistics or biology with every passing day because it is more important that we don't hurt somebody's feelings.

Church do you really think the two statements "most violent crimes are committed by men" and "most men commit violent crimes" are equivalent?

George Washington became the first US President in 1789.

15 white male Presidents later, that country finally stopped valuing other men (and women, who just happened to have black skin) as worth only 60% of themselves. Let's not forget the systemic rape and abuse endured by thousands of slaves on a daily basis.

It then took 29 more white male Presidents before the US - one of the most advanced nations in the world - elected a a black person to President. And look at the disgraceful way he and his wife were treated by racists everywhere, pouring out of the woodwork (just as the rapey, gropey, sexist creeps are now with DJT modelling their behaviour).

So I find it a little odd to claim that poor white men genuinely have it rougher than anyone else 'because Obama' (who got voted in on the back of millions of black, hispanic and female votes - I am not sure, but I think they are what won him his terms).

Of course, we shouldn't feel sorry for white people, they are all naturally guilty by virtue of their skin colour

You are wilfully misunderstanding pretty much everything said to you on this thread.

White people have a natural advantage over people of colour because society is structurally racist.

Men a natural advantage over women because society is also structurally patriarchal.

These are just facts. They aren't "hatred". They don't mean that men don't have problems or white people don't have problems.

What is so controversial or offensive or difficult to understand about the above? I don't get it at all.

Until men stop enabling violent abusive men, male violence wont change, and YABU.

My DH made this point the other day, about men’s responses to #metoo. He said he felt that too many men didn’t get that what they did mattered as much as what they said - and that those things could not be the same.

What they say? Listen, acknowledge, condemn. Don’t get all caught up in ‘most men are great!’ stuff, even if most men are, because it obscures the problem - the vast number of women who have been groped, catcalled, discriminated against at work, stalked, had men get hostile when their advances were rejected, been subjected to unwanted sexual behaviours, been abused, raped, killed. DH’s view was that the only reasonable response is condemnation. That is fine to say ‘that’s not how decent people/decent men behave’, but not ‘hey, most of us are lovely!’ I thought that was a subtle distinction.

And then what they do - he said they’ve got to live the decency, visibly and vocally. Shut down misogynistic bullshit among their friends and colleagues, even when it’s uncomfortable or isolating or costs friendships. Be the one to intervene when women are getting hassled but don’t expect a medal for it. Basically - if your narrative is that you are a decent person who doesn’t support or put up with with toxic bullshit you actually have to live it, by not enabling or engaging with or failing to challenge it.

I found it a really interesting discussion, he said he’s found it tough in all the recent stories not to say ‘hey, but there are lots of great men!’ But then he said he realised that he felt defensive as a man because it is a problem that is widespread and that is driven by the attitudes and behaviours of large numbers of men.

I have two sons , a husband , two brothers , a father, four uncles, twenty male first cousins and they are all thoroughly decent people .I know that I have been lucky in having so many good male influences but in my line of work as a nurse I have often seen the very cruel side of men that also exists.I have seen at first hand how women and children have suffered appallingly at the hands of men.Some of it remains deep seated in my mind.However I have also recently had the experience of the other side of the coin, my teenage son was being abused physically , emotionally and mentally by his so-called girlfriend.She stopped at nothing to humiliate him and control him.Her parents turned a blind eye and let it carry on because they were finally out of the firing line.I went to all the authorities and social services , therapists , family intervention and from all of them (women in all cases ) I was asked every single time why my big strapping son of 6 ft 2 didn't 'Man Up' and retaliate against this girl.They more or less called him a weakling and a failure.I got help from no-one and nor did he.We were left alone to deal with a toxic girl who was destroying our son and our family.In the end we had to take legal action against her.She finally got the message but I was so horrified that the violence and mental torture she caused him was seen as his fault as he was not "man enough " to deal with it.

Church I actively support two charities run by men for men, one being CALM - the Campaign Against Living Miserably. They are needed because toxic masculinity is real, and really damaging for men of all ages/races/sexualities.

Between the ages of 18 and 35, I went to six funerals of male friends.

One had died from genetic illness.

Four had comitted suicide. Toxic masculinity teaches men it's 'soft' to even have emotions, 'weak' to need to talk, that they need to 'man up', have a pint and get on with it.

The last was beaten to death in a mugging whilst trying to protect two females. He left a wife and children. The young man that killed him went to prison, rightly, but the description of his life prior to the event, given in mitigation at sentencing, was heartbreaking.

Toxic masculinity is real, and it's bad for every single human being in our society.

She finally got the message but I was so horrified that the violence and mental torture she caused him was seen as his fault as he was not "man enough " to deal with it.

Yes that is dreadful.

That is another symptom of toxic masculinity. That's the point.

I see it on this forum and hear it from other parents a lot. “Oh boo hoo I’m expecting a boy when I wanted a girl” there’s at least one of those threads every week. And all the lovely stereotyping of boys too, “sounds normal behaviour for a boy” and “yes typical boy” if I had a pound for every time I read that sort of BS on here! It’s as if boys are something to be ashamed of now.

“And all the lovely stereotyping of boys too, “sounds normal behaviour for a boy” and “yes typical boy” ”

You have of course noticed that these remarks are robustly challenged? Often by the regulars of the FWR boards?

And all the lovely stereotyping of boys too, “sounds normal behaviour for a boy” and “yes typical boy” if I had a pound for every time I read that sort of BS on here! It’s as if boys are something to be ashamed of now.

That stems from the patriarchy.

It's what makes people excuse things from men on the grounds of "boys will be boys".

I'm amazed that you or anyone else doesn't see that tbh.

op I completely agree with you. I’ve said so on here before and been attacked and bullied and called a ‘man’ on here so many times that I frankly can’t be arsed to have the debate anymore. I don’t have kids but if I did decide to I would hope they were girls.

It actually always seems to be non feminists who have the lowest opinion of men on here, to be honest. All the stereotyping of boys and men as useless soap dodging incompetents doesn't come from feminists!