To think Nicola is just grasping at straws

[iskegness]

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5304497/amp/Nicola-Sturgeon-bans-Union-Flag-Queens-birthday.html

Banning the union flag so it's only shown once a year. Surely the failing SNP is loosing popularity and she's just getting ever more ridiculous.

The Saltire didn't used to have unappealing connotations, but thanks to the SNP it now does.

I used to have one up on a cupboard door but took it down. I've gone off flags.

The Westminster Govt meet in Westminster and the SNP meet in Holyrood. Better?

I said that there are difficulties with the NHS and education and the economy in the UK in general but the SNP have systematically destroyed education in Scotland, and other devolved areas such as the NHS are going to hell in a handcart too.

The 'English Govt' (by which I meant Tories, sorry!) have made, imo, such a howling mess of things and have been so vilely divisive and socially unfair that it is some sort of miracle for the SNP to have lost 1/3 of their seats when that is the 'opposition' as it were. But they did. And the Tories did well under Ruth Davidson.

The last IndyRef was hugely divisive in my part of Scotland and I do not relish another (pointless expensive) one.

And yes, the trotting off to Europe thinking Scotland would be treated as separate to the UK was magical thinking and left NS looking very foolish imo.

As to NS personally, each time I have met her I have been struck by how professionally charming she is. The consummate politician.

ATownCalledGallus

It's not just where they meet geographically. The parliament that meets in Westminster legislates for the whole of the UK, not just England. Just because it meets on England doesn't make it an English government, looking after England-only affairs. England doesn't have one of those. Devolution seems to mean "devolving away from England" not devolution for all four nations

Not everyone in England is a Tory. Many many of us English hate the Tories just as much as many Scots do. In addition to that, we have no English Parliament to represent us either. So yeah, not great!

Bit
Yes, I do understand this. I expressed it badly - Im tired!

I do think there is some feeling amongst some people in Scotland that it IS an 'English Govt' though (rather a Govt that only cares about English interests)
and (logical leap) therefore the SNP is a 'Scottish Govt' so to criticise them you must therefore be #antiscottish.
I have heard that expressed many times.
The SNP 'taking over' Scottish nationality has been striking feature and therefore the issue of flags is important.

My points re the SNP making a howling mess of things, esp where there is devolved power/£ stand. To lose 1/3 of their seats and for the Tories to do so well in Scotland last time takes some doing!

there is some feeling amongst some people in Scotland that it IS an 'English Govt'

Absolutely. This is something that the SNP loves to point out in their quest for independence. That "Westmonster" doesn't represent Scotland, their views are so out of kilter with Scottish people, it's full of southern Tory MPs who are a different species from Scottish people, that May doesn't have a clue about Scotland, and on and on and on.

They quite like the fact that a lot of English people are confused about the responsibilities are of devolved government in Scotland, Wales and N Ireland. Then they can pick and choose what they talk about. Any successes are purely down to the Scottish government, a failing NHS on the other hand has nothing whatsoever to do with them, even though health is fully devolved.

But baby boxes! We've got baby boxes which they said would cost £6 million a year and are costing more like £9 million. So that's all fine then because we'rve got stuff the English haven't.

I'll let you off Basseting

If it makes you feel better, many many English people feel exactly the same about the Westminster Government. I certainly don't feel they represent me or my interests. And I live in SE England, in a rock solid safe Tory seat with no English Parliament to vote for either in the way that Scots at least get to vote for their Scottish MP.

So in many ways, feeling unrepresented and pissed off with Westminster government in England is even worse because we don't have an extra layer of an English parliament to vote for.

In addition, there is feeling in England that the Scots are very anti-English (I think that's not unfounded to be honest). And it's not just the Scots. Pretty much everyone seems to loathe and resent the English. But I promise you we are not all rabid Tories!

I think we are coming from a similar place in general.

Nicola Sturgeon slams Ruth Davidson for continuing to peddle fake news about the flags. But the Daily Mail and the Telegraph won't retract it because it's Tory fake news and that's ok.

there is feeling in England that the Scots are very anti-English

That's so sad. It really doesn't represent how I feel, or how most of the people I know feel. The area we live in has lots of English people living here who have moved to Scotland for work or to study. DH is English, I have children who were born in England. The whole anti-English thing is stoked up by a minority of the more rabid nationalists who are, on the whole, as thick as two short planks.

k2p2k2tog (it took me ages to type your name! ) I said it's a feeling. Not that it's true. Or that every Scot is anti-English.

Though that rabid minority you describe do seem to get a lot of air time (all the ABE "jokes" are wearing so thin now it's untrue.)

That feeling is fed by the Tory press (also thick AF) down here as this story about the flags so beautifully illustrates.

I have to object to you calling SNP members anti-English. Dh is English and votes SNP, my sisters and I are members and my BIL is English too. I have never heard anyone say anything racist towards English people at SNP events.
Tories don't tend to be complimented too much though.

Wanting your own country to have independence from a union of 4 nations is different from hating all the people in one of the union nations.

I doubt NS did change flag policy - in fact someone has posted with a link stating it hasn't changed since 2010 - but because of the assumption the SNP are all anti-English, most posters on this thread still believe she did, or caused the story to be told for nefarious and unclear reasons.

Funny, I grew up in Glasgow in the 70’s and am very clear of the connection of the Union flag and the Orange order/sectarianism. I grew up believing that those who using images of the Union flags hated Catholics, especially Irish ones. I’ve never need the SNP to encourage to despise the Union Flag, the British nationalist have been doing that in some parts of Scotland for years. Anyway, this isn’t really relevant because the Union flag has not been banned.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42803031
Link to BBC article on the flag nonsense indicates that the changes are ten years old and were brought in by Salmond. Apparently the Queen is fine with having the Royal standard raised for her birthday.

What a load of rubbish. It's not been banned. I guess the Daily Mail and telegraph got what they wanted. Just look at this thread with a bunch of people insulting Nicola Sturgeon. Words like odious and creature being used. I don't mind her, and round here most people are reasonably happy with the Scottish Government and our Scottish NHS. Also, for reasons that PPs have mentioned, Union Flags have such bad connotations in the West.

And yes, the trotting off to Europe thinking Scotland would be treated as separate to the UK was magical thinking and left NS looking very foolish imo.

Interesting. I viewed this differently. I was glad that she was at least trying to see if there were options for us. If I didn't see her doing this I would be annoyed, and it would have looked like she didn't care, especially when the majority in Scotland was for Remain.

I don't think she looked foolish, I think she looked like a leader trying her best. On the other hand, the UK's Brexit negotiations are making the whole of the UK look foolish. Nicola's early efforts are nothing compared to terribleness of what's been going on.

Again I have expressed myself badly.
I live in Scotland. I voted to remain in Europe. Scotland did so overwhelmingly. I think Westminster are making the most enormous hash of Brexit and it is a truly embarrassing time to be British with these clowns in power. So, I can see why NS made some approaches but I do think it was magical thinking to imagine the EU would just roll over and I think her swagger was much reduced on the way home.

I know an SNP MSP quite well who is openly racist. I have been to a number of SNP heavy events and found that the smaller ones where people speak off record more are often notably anti English. Not just anti Westmonster but in general. Obv anecdotal but you can only speak as you find and I appreciate other people's experiences may be different. I did think that the SNP HQ was very slow to dissassociate from anti english sentiments during the IndyRef though (where mud was slung on both sides to the detriment of all concerned)

Funny, I grew up in Glasgow in the 70’s me too, but I only remember the Orange Lodge marching along the high street when I was in primary 5 with their union flag upside down (as I loudly pointed out) and being generally jeered and mocked.

The only nastiness I really came across was down to the stupid segregated school system and the turf warfare that caused.

I have no issues with the flag but feel that the saltire is becoming more like the St Georges flag (with its unpleasant connotations).

And Nicola deserves flack for using the Trump term 'Fake news'.

Fearne Cotton to Nicola Sturgeon well the op’s hates are diverse at least

Fekko - NS was referring to Theresa May's anti-fake news unit which the PM hopes to set up. She was quoting Theresa May, not Donald Trump.

I just said I found FC annoying, hardly hate.

Seems like Nicola whipped this all up just to post a #fakenews and divert attention away from pressing issues.

Nicola now writes the front-page headline of the DM, then?!

Iskegness - so NS made up a negative fake story about herself and fed it to the Daily Mail just for kicks. That is the most far-fetched thing I have ever heard.

More likely the Dail Mail and the Telegraph were asked to put up something anti-SNP to distract from:

• Brexit mess (which 62% of Scots didn't vote for)

• NHS England mess

• Theresa May and Boris falling out

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Not for kicks, to distract and then play the fake news card.

Not sure why you think it's far fetched, it's not uncommon at all in politics.

iskegness –I can smell the paranoia from here.

Have you actually read her Twitter feed today –and that of the Scottish Government?

The BBC has confirmed that it is a non-story –so why are you perpetuating rumours of some kind of Natsi conspiracy? It's just making you look desperate, I'm afraid.

Royal assent given to this eight-year-old change in policy:

thenational.scot/news/15893477.Alex_Salmond_reveals__The_Queen_herself_approved_changing_union_flag_policy___eight_years_ago/