To ask - is my husband's refusal to have sex is abuse? Grounds for divorce?

[worrieddottcom]

I've posted with my husband's refusal to have sex with me under a different name.

In 2017 - no sex at all and only a few short hugs.

2016 - sex three times.

2015 - twice.

I can't take it anymore.

He's a fabulous dad to our teen child.

He loves me - I know he does.

It's not enough.

I'm ashamed to admit to having a non sexual, emotional affair over the last year. This man makes me feel desirable. It won't go any further than that, but it has given me some comfort.

For the last year or so, my husband has chosen to sleep in another room. This started when he had a heavy cold and snored so much that he kept me awake.

Every night, he stays in his study and plays computer games. I watch tv in another room.

He adores our child and will do everything for him.

I'm depressed and frightened and frustrated.

I don't think I can honour the vows I made at our wedding.

Alba

The gaslighting of the OP on this thread............now thats abusive!

That's 2 weight lifters mentioned now. Taking steroids can lower libido.

Quick google results in:

Steroids can affect your sex drive:
steroids can shrink your testicles and cause impotence
depression and mood swings

Steroid use can lead to infertility, reduced sperm count, and they can really mess up a person's natural testosterone levels. Over time, the steroids interrupt the body's normal hormonal axis, resulting in low testosterone, which can cause erectile dysfunction.

Wonder if it's part of the case with OPs DH?

Speaking of weights, the more I go to the gym the less I can tolerate sex - definitely no steroids involved! It makes me feel more confident in saying no perhaps but I would guess that's not happening with OP's DH.

ChocolateWombat

Why do you keep acting as if people are arguing that withholding sex makes you a good husband? You can have a crappy marriage to a crummy person without it being abuse. Abuse is abuse. Women need to grow up and get some agency. It is possible to leave an unhappy marriage without being abused, you know.

Huskylover1

Actually I disagree that I'm jaded. I'm thrilled that I live in a time where marriages can be ended if they make people bitterly unhappy. I want to be married forever but I also know that relationships are not perfectly predictable and may end. I understood this when I got married. I'm an adult with agency and that means that I accept that forever marriage is not guaranteed.

mathanxiety

Your standard for abuse seems to be: (1) does it make your partner unhappy and (2) are you still doing it? Correct? So if your partner wants to have sex more, and you don't agree to it, then you are abusing them. Except, that's a CRAZY standard for abuse and that's NOT what abuse is.

By your standard, women are abusing men every day by refusing to have sex. If I want to work part time and my DH wants me to work full time, if it makes him unhappy, I'm abusing him. My wants and needs are not important. Vice versa, he's abusing me. Wanting another autonomous person to do something and them refusing isn't magically transformed into abuse because their refusal makes me unhappy. People sometimes don't suit. Not suiting your partner isn't abuse. Not wanting to compromise on certain issues isn't abuse.

Relationship abuse is a pattern of abusive and coercive behaviors used to maintain power and control over a former or current intimate partner. Abuse can be emotional, financial, sexual or physical and can include threats, isolation, and intimidation. Abuse tends to escalate over time. When someone uses abuse and violence against a partner, it is always part of a larger pattern of control.

There. Abuse is about coercion and fear. Without the manipulation, shaming, intimidation, it's not abuse. A low drive person not wanting to have sex married to a high drive person is not abuse. It's a bad marriage. Those happen.

Again, this doesn't mean that they are a good partner. They may be selfish or annoying or just a bad fit. But this weird need to widen abuse to basically cover almost all relationships is a big mistake. I assume it's because some women in abusive relationships don't want to feel so alone? It's going to backfire though. Because sooner or later these arguments will be turned back on women who don't want to have sex or who don't want to do what their DHs want. The standards for abuse are widening all the time. Can't wait until "emotional abuse" legally covers withholding sex for X period and so 70% of men divorcing apply for legal aid on the basis of spousal abuse and women who are divorcing men feel pressured to have sex so that they can't be legally called a "withholding spouse". This is the kind of nonsense that will come from this. You'll see.

holdon how sad that you have such miniscule understanding of how it must feel to have one's partner shun you for nearly 20 years. And op has stayed sexually faithful, hoping that dh will one day fancy her, want her, need her. You have no idea, which I suppose is lucky for you.

Holdon - whether or not it is abuse, it's extremely painful and sad.

I am not sure how you managed to get the wrong end of the stick in such spectacular fashion, Holdonasecond.

How could you have missed the bits about 15 years of virtually no affectionate gestures, and apparently no conversation started in which he asked the OP if she was bothered by his lack of interest in sex, no hint that he considered her feelings or needs at all. You seem fixated by sex but the lack of sex is the tip of the iceberg here.

Abuse can be emotional, financial, sexual or physical and can include threats, isolation, and intimidation.
Could it be that there is some agenda rattling around in your head? Maybe you are one of those people who think abuse must come with broken bones and bloodshed. Maybe you are one of those people who thinks that sexual abuse must involve rape? Sexual abuse can also include withholding sex from a partner, and it can involve withholding all affectionate gestures from a partner.

The effect of withholding not just sex but all normal gestures of affection such as hugs, hand holding, cuddling, is devastation. It has immense emotional and psychological consequences for the person whose relationship and expression of her sexuality has been effectively controlled by the withholding party, for years.

Abuse is not always about coercion and fear. Abuse that smoulders for years and years like the abuse the OP is suffering does not necessarily build up to something bigger or different as time goes on, though it has in this case. The abuse here has escalated to the H sleeping in another bedroom, with no explanation offered to the OP, and a situation where they are two ships passing in the night, under the same roof, he is his office, she watching tv on the couch. With no change except change for the worse over the years, the OP is left with no clue as to whether her H even likes her any more as a friend, let alone fancies her.

Relationship abuse is a pattern of abusive and coercive behaviors used to maintain power and control over a former or current intimate partner.
The H has effectively used the marriage vows his wife is conscientious about (she feels huge guilt over the EA she had) and the family structure she is committed to to keep her almost celibate for about 15 years. 15 years is a long time to spend watching someone become depressed and desperate while you eat the meals she serves, wear the clothes she irons, and enjoy the home she keeps clean. It's a long time to sit in silence watching someone wonder where she stands.

There doesn't have to be coercion of a physical kind. The H has used the OP's conscientiousness against her.

Why doesnt the H leave then holdon?

Great post math

Well said math

OP I've known several cases of men doing this to various friends of mine and the problems in each have been an affair, pornography use but no longer being attracted to the wife and falling out of love with the wife and seeing it as a marriage of convenience.

Without meaning to upset you, could any of these be the case in your marriage? I did wonder given the way you discuss marriage vows if perhaps you and your DH take a very traditional (or religious??) view towards marriage and if therefore he may take the view that it is his duty to stay in the marriage and that as you have a child he has provided all the sex necessary on his part?

Clearly the Hernia pain story is unlikely to be true given the weightlifting.

So math every marriage ends because at least one partner is unhappy. Are the actions of the other partner that lead to that level of unhappiness always abusive? You say the OP's DH has used the OP's conscientiousness against her. Do you know if he's doing it deliberately?

What your whole argument says to me is that you don't think it's possible for one member of a partnership to drift away over time without them being an abuser. This couple have drifted apart. They don't/can't communicate. The reason for the OP's lack of interest has yet to be clarified. Your conclusion that he's abusing her is such a stretch and seems to be based on the element of control being an awareness of the OP's commitment to their vows and using that against her. What bothers me most is you're so convinced this is abusive when there are multiple reasons - biogical, mental/ psychological - as to why he could be acting the way he is. You're accusing others of not being aware of all the forms abuse can take, but you're concluding abuse based on your own personal views. And you're so determined to convince everyone that your concrete conclusion that this is automatically abusive is correct has meant the advice for the OP about what to do is getting lost.

I wouldn't call it abuse, unless the partner was witholding on purpose at specific times as punishment.

But it looks like a sexless marriage and one where you're not happy, OP.
You can leave at any time, if you want to.
It doesn't have to be abusive. Or completely miserable.
If you think you'll be happier separated or with someone else, just go.

math

Complete rubbish. Abuse can be plenty of things but under your rules, every divorce is abusive because every person who leaves is unhappy. Unhappy person = abuse.

How could you have missed the bits about 15 years of virtually no affectionate gestures, and apparently no conversation started in which he asked the OP if she was bothered by his lack of interest in sex, no hint that he considered her feelings or needs at all.

Did he coerce the OP to stay for those 15 years? I must have missed that part.

Could it be that there is some agenda rattling around in your head? Maybe you are one of those people who think abuse must come with broken bones and bloodshed.

Lol, yes. You got me! That's why I posted a definition of emotional abuse that discussed coercion and intimidation. Because I've got an agenda!

The effect of withholding not just sex but all normal gestures of affection such as hugs, hand holding, cuddling, is devastation.

Just because something is emotionally devastating does not make it abusive. Mumsnet has regular posts from women who want one more child than their partner. That is emotionally devastating to them. They have the right to leave their relationship over it. It is NOT abusive.

It has immense emotional and psychological consequences for the person whose relationship and expression of her sexuality has been effectively controlled by the withholding party, for years.

Your sexuality is not controlled. Your right to have sex with that person is controlled. Your right to leave is not controlled unless it's an abusive relationship.

Abuse is not always about coercion and fear.

Actually, yes it is. Abuse is always about coercion because if it's not, it's not abuse. People not doing things you don't want is not abuse. Women need to understand that they have a right not to be unhappy and to leave poor relationships. Labelling every relationship abuse is actually infantilising and counter-productive. It teaches women that only abuse allows you to leave. Which is not true! A dead bedroom is a great reason to leave a marriage. But it's not abuse.

Abuse that smoulders for years and years like the abuse the OP is suffering does not necessarily build up to something bigger or different as time goes on, though it has in this case.

It's not abuse. It's a bad marriage. Bad marriages are also psychologically destructive. People leave non abusive relationships and feel like they are coming alive again. The OP should 100% leave. But it's not abuse.

Relationship abuse is a pattern of abusive and coercive behaviors used to maintain power and control over a former or current intimate partner.

So you admit that abuse requires COERCION. You just said before that it doesn't require coercion but yet you now define it as COERCIVE BEHAVIOR. I'm glad we agree. Abuse requires COERCION.

The H has effectively used the marriage vows his wife is conscientious about (she feels huge guilt over the EA she had) and the family structure she is committed to to keep her almost celibate for about 15 years. 15 years is a long time to spend watching someone become depressed and desperate while you eat the meals she serves, wear the clothes she irons, and enjoy the home she keeps clean.

Is she cleaning the house and cooking in exchange for sex? I thought she was doing it because she was an adult who also lived there? Isn't that what a man would be told if he said he cooked and cleaned and didn't get any sex?

Honestly, I don't know what you mean by "conscientiousness". It sounds like you are saying that her husband has used the fact she wants to be married and did chores against her but that would make no sense because don't most people in marriages want to be married? He clearly does. So isn't she also using his "conscientiousness" against him?

There doesn't have to be coercion of a physical kind. The H has used the OP's conscientiousness against her.

Nobody said the coercion has to be physical. I certainly didn't. But there is no coercion of any kind.

OP: please listen to me. You don't have to be unhappy. You don't have to be in an unhappy marriage. Your husband is uncaring and a bad fit for you and you have to the right to leave and be happy. And have a full sex life. You don't need to make this abuse in order to make it okay to leave. Marriage is not a prison. Everyone else on this thread is arguing that marriage IS a prison. And because it's a prison, your DH was abusive to you because he was a bad cellmate. You were both trapped there and couldn't leave and he made it bad. Like someone farting in a lift! But the truth is that both of you are free to leave! Leave! Be free! Just leave him! You could always leave and you can leave right now! Don't make this about him. Make it about you and your happiness.

OP: And if you're worried about your wedding vows, don't be. He broke your vows because he hasn't loved or cherished you. A relationship is not a piece of paper, it's a living thing between two people. If it's dead, you have no obligation to force yourself to stay there being desperately unhappy.

holdon

for saying what I wanted to say so much better.

Thanks, Holden.

I was in the same kind of marriage which led to me having a breakdown. My psychiatrist called it mental cruelty. That's abuse, isn't it?

You're dismissing something you clearly have no experience or expertise on, Holdon.

'There is no coercion of any kind'
Yet there is completely predictable misery which he has observed for 15 years, and he has made no attempt to explain what is happening or offer the OP a chance to part on good terms.

There is no coercion but the OP has had her sex life dictated to her for 15 years. She did not choose to be all but celibate.

There is no coercion but not a single affectionate gesture, and he stays in his own office every night avoiding the OP, and then retires to a spare bedroom.

Mental cruelty is abuse.

Hope you never experience it.

I also hope you will learn to read.

" Relationship abuse is a pattern of abusive and coercive behaviors used to maintain power and control over a former or current intimate partner. " (to quote you)

So you admit that abuse requires COERCION. You just said before that it doesn't require coercion but yet you now define it as COERCIVE BEHAVIOR. I'm glad we agree. Abuse requires COERCION.

..then maybe you wouldn't end up posting tripe like this, and in caps too.

It is abusive to say, 'I have something you want, and I am not going to give it to you. I am in control of this situation and I intend to remain in control, and here's the kicker - you can do nothing about it.'

I very much suspect that the abuse here goes further than just the game of keepaway.

The ultimate aim of abuse is to make the victim feel she has no option but to stay and continue to be abused. This clever man has managed to convince her that he loves her, through all of this. She bears a huge burden of guilt for her EA, and is confused as to whether there is abuse in a situation where one spouse does not even hug the other for so long. There has obviously been a huge amount of gaslighting. She is a long, long way from feeling that she has options.

You can keep insulting me all you like math. Doesn't matter. You want me to get sucking into namecalling so you can dismiss the fact that abuse requires coercion.

It is abusive to say, 'I have something you want, and I am not going to give it to you. I am in control of this situation and I intend to remain in control, and here's the kicker - you can do nothing about it.'

Yes, the problem for you is that this statement establishes something very clear that isn't in the OP's account: COERCION (yes, in all caps!).

The OP can't leave, wait she can! She can leave. So there is something she can do about it.

This clever man has managed to convince her that he loves her,

Maybe he does love her? People can love other people and still be selfish arseholes. Your take is so weird. The problem with trying to convince her that he's an evil genius mastermind is that what if he isn't? When she gets off mumsnet, she sees that he's just a pathetic avoidant man and then she can't go through with leaving him. Instead of trying to create some story that you think will motivate her to leave (he's a monster! he's abusing you!), why not just encourage her to understand that she deserves to have a happy relationship regardless of whether he's bad or not!

She bears a huge burden of guilt for her EA,

But as you've said 20 times, this predates the EA by a decade. Her staying in the relationship has nothing to do with the EA. She could have left before the EA. She could have left during and she can leave now.

She is a long, long way from feeling that she has options.

But she has options. And empowering women should be about showing them they have options. Not encouraging them to believe they are stuck. People are arguing with me that it's pathetic to leave an unhappy marriage? That marriage vows are for life, how does this help the OP???? People are trying so hard to make him abusive that you're actually missing the damaging messages that you're reinforcing to the OP.

I've been abused, and I am currently in a sexless relationship. This feels worse than being abused. I suppose that's because I always left those who abused me immediately, whereas here I am, two and a half years sex deprived to the point of insanity, my self esteem destroyed, my heart shattered daily, feeling like I'm dying inside. I remain because my boyfriend loves me and our 21 month old daughter. I'm really trying to make it work. Just commiserating. I've begged for an open relationship. He nearly cheated on me with the neighbor, a huge slap in the face as I want sex daily. If you can manage to leave, go. Live close by, so your son can see his Dad daily. To those who said this is insulting to those who have been abused, you've clearly never experienced the soul crushing, insidious pain that is a sexless relationship.