Yes another trans thread

[NewMummy579]

I'm struggling to understand this documentary I'm watching on catch up called sex map of Britain 'the pregnant dad'. Two trans men in a relationship one of which is pregnant. He is having a home birth to avoid pronouns in the hospital and being wrongly identifies as 'she' or 'her' and struggling with body image now he has a pregnant belly.

If you are born female but believe you are in the wrong body and transition to live as a Male, surely it's not being unreasonable to expect that you therefore do not partake in female biological acts like pregnancy and giving birth??

The couple are quoted as saying 'oh one of us had to delay hormone treatment and bite the bullet in getting pregnant if we wanted to have a family'. If you both identify as a male couple then why not adopt as many gay couples do and give a child a good home?

After the baby is born, they refer to 'chest feeding' instead of breast feeding and say it's ridiculous when he needs to be put on the birth certificate as 'mother' since they gave birth, rather than as 2 fathers.

I'm perhaps being unreasonable and openly don't understand all aspects of this complicated gender topic but I'm seeing it a bit like having your cake and eating it - you either either identify/live as one sex or another and not both when it suits circumstance?

Sex determination – the way we are “coded” into a biological sex – is complicated in and of itself. There are far more options than just “male” or “female,” and countless instances of species that can actually transition from one sex to another within a single lifetime

From this part I could tell how the rest of the article was going to go tbh.

The bit about twins is bollocks as it completely ignores that 'gender' is enforced on children and thats much more likely to be the reason that twins are apparently often both transgender. It ignores the social side of it all and assumes that it must be biological.

The onto the debunked brain sex stuff.

I cannot read past that tbh as its just so much bullshit that its an utter waste of time.

Reading back the twins comment makes not much sense. What I meant is that with identical twins, they will be (in the huge majority of cases) the same sex. So lets assume they are both girls. If their parents enforce the whole 'girls must like pink' shit then yes, they could both end up believing they are the opposite sex because their interests are more boyish. Both being the same sex, then yes, both could be 'trans' as adults. This appears not to have been taken into account at all. Like most essays/articles trying to prove a biological basis for it all.

I see it as this. If you get a period then no matter how much you try to change your appearance, you will always be female. If your trans male and had a child then it's very straight forward, ur actually a women. No man would even experience a period let alone pregnancy and giving birth. Changing what's on the outside doesn't change what's on the inside and what's biologically written in your genes!

**"...........this couple irked me. The way husband/partner "corrected" and then stared down the midwife when she was talking generally about pregnant women taking up drugs if offered during labour. He barked out "pregnant men" which isn't true. The midwife was talking in general terms about her experience previously. Pregnant people/patients may have been more appropriate but she wasn't wrong to say pregnant women if she hadn't treated a trans man before.

The glare she received made me uncomfortable, almost like they were doing it to prove a point rather than gather information about the birth."

^^ this

The research on transgender is seriously flawed - some researchers are trans themselves so there would obviously be bias.

And the offensive 'cis' used a blanket for anyone not trans without properly exploring what apparently 'cis' or non trans people actually feel or how they live their lives according to or against gender/ sex stereotypes.

Also people need to be studied objectively/ covertly otherwise all you are doing is revealing what they consciously know/ believe or consciously want to tell you.

And it can take a lifetime to develop the awareness of exactly how society has shaped you, so the study needs to be long-term. Who can be bothered though when we can just re-write science and law.

It really frightens me - some of the absolute very worst things in history have happened becasue someone got a weird, irrational, non-provable idea untruth in their head and persuaded others to go along with it either to exercise their malignant personality or to extend their wealth and power:

**Some man decided that women were to blame for Adam biting the apple or something else strange and for that reason women were denigrated, and blamed and thought full of sin and to be unclean, for over two millennia (because I have no doubt some still believe it).

**Women could not vote because, amongst other terrible traits like having opionions, we were believed to have a travelling womb, uncontrollable emotions and not capable of such intelligent reasoning.

**People of non-white skin were thought to be less than human because it suited some people to believe an obvious lie in order to exploit them.

**Jewish people have been exterminated because an evil man exploited several millennia of non-sensical, twisted prejudice and hatred, which probably all started because men actually wanted to fight about territory/ wealth and other non-provable ideas about whose God is best.

** so many other things

Women and people of colour and the poor etc etc, have benefitted massively from a shift towards reason, science and the rule of coherent justfiable law and away from baseless ideaology (though with a long way to go obviously) and it is absolutely dangerous for all of us male or female to lose that.

(Rant over - breathe)

Just (accidentally) watching Transformation Street on ITV. I really feel for the people individually but some points leapt out at me.

Juno a transwoman, has said that she didn't feel like a boy growing up, and that "society had taught his father how to have a father-son relationship and so he took him fishing and to football but he didnt like those things so didn't want to be a boy" (paraphrasing but very close to exact words)

His Dad didn't easily accept him being gay, but said he more easily accepted his son being trans (and dad is visibly much more happy with that. Juno said that his father didn't know how to have a father-son relationship with him, but dad knows how to have a father-daughter relationship as he has a sister and so they do that now.

I do respect and empathise with the pain and distress that Juno feels and has been through, but really their story in their own words exactly fits what so many on these threads have been proposing as a cause of transgender/ gender dysphoria: Parents modelled strong gender stereotypes which didn't fit with the child, father appears to favour/ approve of feminine daughter but struggles to accept non-stereotypical boy child, father doesn't really accept/approve of gay son, but is happy to explain it away as his son transitioning to being a girl and it is all smiles..

Another transowmn said that she is treated very differently now she is a (more passing) woman than as a man...

How is that some people still think that inflexible/ irrational gender stereotypes have no role to play in people feeling they have to change gender?

I can see that some people are so happy and relieved to have their surgery and I sincerely wish that these 'magic wandscalpel' transformations were as simple as they can appear to be (if you don't look beyond the surface) and give people hapiness and acceptance tey crave, without butting right up against women's rights and laws and science etc.

There are question marks around whether an artificial womb could replace a human fully anyway - scientists thought they could do better than breastmilk and look what happened there. What impact it would have on a child being grown without all the interactions that go on between the woman's body and the feotus is anyone's guess. The idea that when it comes to reproduction a woman is just a vessel - that her womb is just a bag with some hormones and whathaveyou - disconnected almost from the rest of her - is based in standard misogyny and is pretty dubious to say the least

Exactly. As I said on another thread, to reduce pregnancy to being a gestational bag is incredibly ignorant. Women's bodies change in all kinds of ways over the course of pregnancy, such as skin tags, extra bodily hair, darkened skin, thicker hair (or hair loss) and dental issues to the extent that the NHS even gives free treatment to all pregnant women and post-partum women. Wombs are not some kind of "plug and play" organ

I’ve watched the programme this evening.

I work in the criminal justice system and have every confidence that the coupe in the documentary will make better parents than most of the people I see through my work.

It seems ridiculous to me to claim that physical differences between the sexes stop at the neck. After all the brain is as much part of the body as the uterus or testicles.

Th paper I linked to above stated that the brains of transwomen have been found to structurally resemble the brains of non transwomen more than they resemble those of non transgender men, and similarly the brains of transmen to resemble the brains of non transgender men more than those of women.

I work in the criminal justice system and have every confidence that the coupe in the documentary will make better parents than most of the people I see through my work.

...and, Catsize? What has that to do with that couple trying to make us all collude in their lie?

I don't know where I stand on the trans debate in general. But what I do believe is that the couple in the documentary are a shit example. They're both very "snowflakey".

I've got zero issue with same sex couples having children however they choose to.

But the pronoun thing pisses me off. Chestfeeding and labouring/pregnant person? These things can only be done by a female. So why are we bending scientific rules to marry with peoples feelings?

It seems ridiculous to me to claim that physical differences between the sexes stop at the neck. After all the brain is as much part of the body as the uterus or testicles

If this indeed the case (and the science is inconclusive on this at the moment....), then why should the brain get labelled the "right" bit and every other bit of the body be "wrong"?

What about women who have "men brains" but who are quite happy being women? Are they mistaken? Are they in fact men in the wrong body, but they just don't realise?

Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?
Why are Transwomen in the news for sports and politics and other accomplishments but transmen only make the news for having babies?

The Powers that be don't believe it enough for Transmen to inherit Titles or Stately homes.
Current law states that changing gender 'does not effect the descent of any peerage'.
While telling us its progressive for transwomen to take over women's political roles, sports etc.
That's when I knew it was all bullshit.

Th paper I linked to above stated that the brains of transwomen have been found to structurally resemble the brains of non transwomen more than they resemble those of non transgender men, and similarly the brains of transmen to resemble the brains of non transgender men more than those of women.

But if you control for homosexuality, the same scans show that gay men on average have slightly more feminine brains than straight men on average. You're as much looking at homosexuality as you are at transness.

Besides, this is about population averages. A 6ft 4in woman is still a woman even though her height is more typical of a man's height. A 5ft 1in man is still a man. There is no such thing as ladybrain.

This doesn't mean catastrophically dysphoric people shouldn't transition if that will relieve lifelong distress.

But it does mean that human beings cannot change sex or be born with ladybrains if they are not female. And a great deal of flakey and/or misapplied science is being bandied about to try to kid people that it is.

The Powers that be don't believe it enough for Transmen to inherit Titles or Stately homes.
Current law states that changing gender 'does not effect the descent of any peerage'.
While telling us its progressive for transwomen to take over women's political roles, sports etc

And in Ireland, they can't train to be Catholic Priests :)

I love how so many of you are all of a sudden doctors, educated enough to label transgender men or women ‘mentally unstable’.... it’s actually laughable. It’s not a mental illness.

Good Lord.

Do you seriously think that the women on here are uninformed? That they haven't been reading about this for years?

Poring over studies, reading, listening, analysing.

It's not a knee jerk reaction to a 'sudden' problem.

Gender dysphoria is classified as a mental condition. In the DSMV.

It's changed its name from gender identity disorder to gender dysphoria.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2010.509215

The study about twins indicates nurture rather than nature. Otherwise 100 percent of genetically identical twins would be trans.

The brain study starts laughably biased as it atributes certain behaviours as masculine or feminine!

It also ends up categorising on the basis of sexual orientation.

Effeminate men and masculine women. Which brings us back, again, to the society definition of what means masculine and what means feminine.

And lastly, it's immaterial.

We categorise based on biology, not neurology. Because it is biology that dictates the different needs of humans.

Me thinking in a certain way doesn't stop me needing maternity provision, or sanitary products. Neither does it stop me conceiving if I'm raped.

A man thinking in a certain way, quite evidently, does not stop him behaving in a way that is dictated by his biology.

I don't care if the two women in the OP want to call themselves men. I do care if me disagreeing with them makes me a bigot.

I can also foresee problems if they hate their bodies so much and are raising in a child in that context. But as previous posters have pointed out, you can't really mandate for that.

But you can certainly have an opinion. And that opinion is not bigoted. It's common sense.

The Powers that be don't believe it enough for Transmen to inherit Titles or Stately homes.
Current law states that changing gender 'does not effect the descent of any peerage'.
While telling us its progressive for transwomen to take over women's political roles, sports etc

And in Ireland, they can't train to be Catholic Priests smile.

And Catlyn Jenner is still a member at the men only golf club they were in before transition
And a posh gentlemen's club in London recently confirmed that they will continue to accept membership from one of their members who has transitioned.

Double ++ to all of this. It makes it as clear as the nose on your face what is going on. Who really believes what.

Agreed.
It's pissing on us, and calling it rain.

One study found that one third of identical twin pairs in the sample were both transgender: 13 of 39 and there is this Dr. Johanna Olson-Kennedy of Children's Hospital Los Angeles: There have been only a few twin-concordance studies. The findings of these studies show a concordance rate of 39% among monozygotic (identical twins) and no concordance among dizygotic twins (fraternal/sororal) twins. These studies point to the potential genetic underpinnings of gender dysphoria but not the whole story, because there is not 100 percent concordance [with identical twins], and in those studies there was not concordance with the non-identical twins."

Certainly social contagion would play an enormous part in family members transitioning.

Certainly social contagion would play an enormous part in family members transitioning.

And I'm perfectly willing to believe that someone might have a predisposition towards a disassociative disorder like gender dysphoria.

It doesn't mean you've changed sex.