Yes another trans thread

[NewMummy579]

I'm struggling to understand this documentary I'm watching on catch up called sex map of Britain 'the pregnant dad'. Two trans men in a relationship one of which is pregnant. He is having a home birth to avoid pronouns in the hospital and being wrongly identifies as 'she' or 'her' and struggling with body image now he has a pregnant belly.

If you are born female but believe you are in the wrong body and transition to live as a Male, surely it's not being unreasonable to expect that you therefore do not partake in female biological acts like pregnancy and giving birth??

The couple are quoted as saying 'oh one of us had to delay hormone treatment and bite the bullet in getting pregnant if we wanted to have a family'. If you both identify as a male couple then why not adopt as many gay couples do and give a child a good home?

After the baby is born, they refer to 'chest feeding' instead of breast feeding and say it's ridiculous when he needs to be put on the birth certificate as 'mother' since they gave birth, rather than as 2 fathers.

I'm perhaps being unreasonable and openly don't understand all aspects of this complicated gender topic but I'm seeing it a bit like having your cake and eating it - you either either identify/live as one sex or another and not both when it suits circumstance?

Look at what is going on with surrogacy around the world

Listen to the glib comments from people with male bodies who simply expect women to be available to do this reproductive work.

There is little to no concern or even thought given to where these organs / women will come from, just a blind (entitled) assumption that they will be.

Whatever comes to pass in the future, the casualness with which people say "oh in the future we'll be able to transplant wombs into men" obviously without thinking any further than that, ie giving no thought to where all these organs will come from, that to me shows a current total disinterest in / understanding of / care for women and girls and underscores the level of misogyny present in the world in which we currently live.

The world in which girls these days have gender / sex dysmorphia and bind their breasts around puberty, where 30 years ago they had body dysmorphia and starved themselves and wore baggy clothes.

Yes Up you are totally right.

Spartacus - Yes! I was just talking about this situation. In general, I think if the personal, social or financial effect on others is significant or negative then it should no longer be your own free choice to do as you wish

So that's the liberal harm principle. But do you think this should be what guides the medical profession?

I normally avoid these threads but this couple irked me. The way husband/partner "corrected" and then stared down the midwife when she was talking generally about pregnant women taking up drugs if offered during labour. He barked out "pregnant men" which isn't true. The midwife was talking in general terms about her experience previously. Pregnant people/patients may have been more appropriate but she wasn't wrong to say pregnant women if she hadn't treated a trans man before.

The glare she received made me uncomfortable, almost like they were doing it to prove a point rather than gather information about the birth.

Listen to the glib comments from people with male bodies who simply expect women to be available to do this reproductive work.

Devils Advocate: and the simple expectation of there being a sperm donor, and the myriad issues because of lack of legislation there?

I am not saying I disagree with a word you said about surrogacy or the mind set of some men. Whilst I think we should continue to fight tooth and nail against the current Neo Liberal stupidity, I personally feel the need for a quick pit stop.. the need to check that my fear and anger hasn't pushed me over the edge.

A lot of posters, not only here but elsewhere, are repaid becoming less and less interested in any 'fix' preferring simply to expound their disbelief and distaste. I don't want to lose the need for perspective and the possibility of a real end result!

I notice the predictable side-tracked obsession with 'body-snatching' women's wombs to 'graft' onto 'male bodied' people. Would the concerned posters be less bothered to hear that baby sheep have been successfully grown in artificial wombs? There will soon be no need for a transplant.

Social and ethical issues aside - and I think there ARE many, serious issues - this is no different to the imminent realisation of synthetically developed sperm. Again, a MN trans conversation seems to degenerate into reactionary bigotry. It's getting like Stormfront for paranoid, sectarian anger.

That was far better than my attempt at addressing the 'body snatching' issue. Thanks, Babycham

YANBU

People like that are ridiculous for obvious reasons. I detest their attitude and their moi moi moi behaviour.

I do not understand at all how a female who is dysphoric about their sex can go through pregnancy.

I was a bit blah about the whole thing.....until the birth certificate thing - so much fuss about not being named the legal fathers to their son, when they are both still legally female.

Wow, have not seen this program but this seems totally bonkers. They wanted to be named the fathers, even though one of them gave birth to the child, and neither have a GRC?!

On a similar note, I am sick of seeing so many 'man is pregnant, its a miracle!' type stories when the pregnant person is (obviously..as males cannot get pregnant) female. And so many gullible fools commenting on them saying 'wow, science is so advanced now' and such. Its just ridiculous. It is not noteworthy that a female person is pregnant, it happens all the time. Oddly enough, female people who have short hair and wear 'male clothing' can also get pregnant!

Oh god. Her eternal frustration at people refusing to accept a pregnant man.

I was particularly exercised by her statement that if her 86 year old gran can accept it, what's everyone else's excuse. As if she is owed this from us.

It's narcissism.

I haven't RTFT but the only person in this whole sorry story I feel for is that baby who is being denied the truth of who their biological mother and father is.

not only are the parents delusional but that child is going to grow up the same.

Where are they going to get the wombs from?

I've seen posts from transwomen demanding 'cis' women donate their uteruses when they are done having kids because its a waste to not use it and transphobic to deny it. These males have no clue about female biology or the importance of the uterus & ovaries in hormone production

It bothered me when they got so upset about the birth certificate. It is a legal document, at this point in time you are both legally women so you clearly can't put yourselves down as men on a legal document.
Be what you want to be, call yourself whatever you want to be, I will respect that. But when you get to the point that you are expecting the world to bend the rules for you then I'm less understanding.

I hope they think long and hard about how they present all this to their child when he's old enough.

There's something a bit disturbing about Dorian being so determined to deny he is the baby's biological mother that I find hard to take, I'm not sure why.

It bothered me when they got so upset about the birth certificate. It is a legal document, at this point in time you are both legally women so you clearly can't put yourselves down as men on a legal document.

I have issues with trans people being able to change their sex on their birth certificate actually. Its a historical document. yes you may consider yourself female/male now, but you were (and still are in reality) the opposite sex when you were born. And its a record of fucking births.

If you’re trans, go for it, but go the whole hog. Keeping your previous gender’s reproductive organs is def not transitioning into the opposite sex.

I find this casual dismissal of the very real issues around surrogacy globally startlingly unpleasant. & the reference to organ harvesting as well, as if that never happens.

Just kind of goes to prove my point I think.

Or maybe some types of people and what happens to them matter more than other types of people.

I have issues with trans people being able to change their sex on their birth certificate actually

I am certain the long form certificate stays the same but the short form one is altered. Either way I agree with you.

Sex is fixed and the birth certificate should remain as is. I don't understand the need to change it personally because doing so leaves a large group of vulnerable people (last stat I saw 50-65% of trans people have other mental health issues eg anxiety, PTSD etc) open to medical harm not because of the doctors being neglectful but because their records are false. This leaves doctors open to negligence claims. People not being called up for routine life saving, check ups.

Its complete madness were in. as the transactivists say 'people are literally dying' well they will be, from complications from cross sex hormones, adverse reactions to drugs and failure to be screened properly because the wrong sex is on medical forms

Donate your womb? Yeah ok, I’ll just have a hysterectomy to give someone else my old uterus. That’s the most wtf thing I have ever heard.

Op I entirely agree.

I also utterly agree with this: Surely one of the fundamentally identifying factors of being female is pregnancy and labour. If you hate being female that much you declare yourself male why on earth would you put yourself through that? If you do then surely you're not trans? What a ludicrous bunch of attention seekers.

And this: some Trans people are deluded. They ignore biology, facts and science and seem to be making stuff up as they go along.

I entirely agree that it is a mental illness, and people need help, not encouragement to permanently alter their bodies. After all, there is such a thing as trans regret.

The worst thing about the explosion of trans people and transculture with it's ludicrous pronouns and 'non-binaries' and 'chestfeeding' (chestfeeding??!! Ffs 🙄), is how young it seems to start. The amount of young children 'transitioning' or 'identifying' as the opposite gender is staggering and concerning. I honestly think that in years to come the fact that 'we' allow young children to take puberty blockers and make life altering changes to their bodies will be one of the greatest scandals of this generation. It's all very very sad.

And if that makes me a terf or a bigot, I don't give a single shit.
Don't even get me started on the term 'cis'.

Babycham we are a very very long way away from being able to grow babies in bags.

FWIW the lambs were transplanted when they had already reached a certain level of gestation in the mother. They were not grown "from scratch". They are being researched with the aim of being able to help premature babies.

There are question marks around whether an artificial womb could replace a human fully anyway - scientists thought they could do better than breastmilk and look what happened there. What impact it would have on a child being grown without all the interactions that go on between the woman's body and the feotus is anyone's guess. The idea that when it comes to reproduction a woman is just a vessel - that her womb is just a bag with some hormones and whathaveyou - disconnected almost from the rest of her - is based in standard misogyny and is pretty dubious to say the least.

I've seen posts from transwomen demanding 'cis' women donate their uteruses when they are done having kids because its a waste to not use it and transphobic to deny it. These males have no clue about female biology or the importance of the uterus & ovaries in hormone production

There are arseholes in all walks of life. I am sure these transwomen do not represent the majority.

That level of entitlement is staggering.

I think the surrogacy item is the more pressing issue and for a much wider population.

Interestingly I do think that a lot of the comments I see around uterusus, periods and stuff from certain trans people really shows up, as a PP says, that they have zero understanding of how women's bodies work, or really bizarre ideas, which given that they want to be fully accepted as women in every way feels like a bit of an oversight.

You shouldn't be able to pick parts at random to cobble together your version of an "ideal" body. The world is going mad

I have to disagree you absolutely should be able to have the parts you want (paying for it yourself please) however the result should be called what it is trans, transman or transwoman or third gender. What you should not be able to do is be a woman if you were born a man you should be proud to be a trans woman not usurping and redefining woman to suit your needs at the cost of ours. If you were born intersex then and only they should you be able to 'change'