Yes another trans thread

[NewMummy579]

I'm struggling to understand this documentary I'm watching on catch up called sex map of Britain 'the pregnant dad'. Two trans men in a relationship one of which is pregnant. He is having a home birth to avoid pronouns in the hospital and being wrongly identifies as 'she' or 'her' and struggling with body image now he has a pregnant belly.

If you are born female but believe you are in the wrong body and transition to live as a Male, surely it's not being unreasonable to expect that you therefore do not partake in female biological acts like pregnancy and giving birth??

The couple are quoted as saying 'oh one of us had to delay hormone treatment and bite the bullet in getting pregnant if we wanted to have a family'. If you both identify as a male couple then why not adopt as many gay couples do and give a child a good home?

After the baby is born, they refer to 'chest feeding' instead of breast feeding and say it's ridiculous when he needs to be put on the birth certificate as 'mother' since they gave birth, rather than as 2 fathers.

I'm perhaps being unreasonable and openly don't understand all aspects of this complicated gender topic but I'm seeing it a bit like having your cake and eating it - you either either identify/live as one sex or another and not both when it suits circumstance?

I quite like the idea of being able to pick and choose the different aspects of being male and being female, whilst still living as a woman. The male things I’d choose would definitely be higher earnings and being expected to do fewer household jobs.

Spirit

A lot of the trans community are barking mad - their plain weird, deluded and often abusive views needs to be outed. Not be encouraged and taught to our kids in school as fact.

mobile.twitter.com/fedupfemme/status/953083691609272320

spiritofadventure

Which comments in particular are disgusting and abhorrent?

You see, this is the kind of thread where I find myself going "Fuck! How unreasonable can some posters be??!!"

You will sometime find me in trans threads explaining to a poster, like spirit above, that what they have reads is NOT discrimination but a group of women who don't want to be newly labelled, managed out of existence.

But NOT here!

OP is about 2 women who are transitioning, a gay female couple. They want a baby before they both compete their transition and become a gay male couple, presumably. They make the decision that one of them will 'bite the bullet' and go through child birth before competing her/his transition. Yes, they want to have their cake and eat it! Luckily it is medically possible and there is no evidence to suggest that the child will come to any kind of harm.

Odd linguistics, e.g. chest feeding, aside... SO FUCKING WHAT?

If they were 2 men wanting to father children before transitioning I would feel the same. Good for you, your personal choice, crack on!

I have no idea what MNs take on this thread will be, but some of the posts here really do stray over the edge of homo and transphobia!

It's a bit like when male bodied people claim that they are so gender dysphoric that they will commit suicide right here right now if women don't let them into their female only sex segregated spaces. Whilst simultaneously growing a big old beard and seeing and using their penis on a daily basis.

bambambini That thread was terrifying! WTF!

I know op, people are being expected to believe a man can give birth, or a man can click his heels 3 times, say he is a woman and he is. Of course no one actually really does believe this biological miracle can happen so some just go along out of courtesy.

It must be horrible wanting to be something you aren't and can never be, but it's the harsh reality of life unfortunately. I always wanted to be much taller than I was/am, but I seriously doubt me saying "but I AM 5FT 9 because I feel that tall" would work.

I think it's a shame some trans people are so ashamed they are trans that they'd rather just claim to have always been a woman with a penis/man with a vagina, effectively denying their own existence, surely that's the very definition of transphobia?

You cannot transition from one sex to another.

bambini I got rally lost in that thread... had no idea who was what, was who... such weird illogical, circular arguments.

I wanted to leap back in time and shout "Yes, as a lesbian I do love pussy and hate dick... cos I am a lesbian!" But not being a lesbian, or in possession of a time machine, I probably won't!

But it does help to remember that not all trans individuals are that weird. Thankfully they are a relatively small, if extremely loud, minority. Hopefully the world will wake up - sooner rahter than later!

mobile.twitter.com/fedupfemme/status/953083691609272320

World. Gone. Mad.

I stand by what I said few posts ago. Twitter is the (main) cause of this.

I think that anyone should be able to live freely as they please, dress how they want, present how they want, love who they want. If they have the money to pay for it, and the good health to survive it, I have no objection at all to anyone having as much plastic surgery as they want, to reconfigure their bodies in any way that pleases them, even if it does not conform to what other people would want or think usual.

However, what people don't have the right to do is to force other people to collude with a lie. If two female-bodied people want to have a baby and call each other "dad", that's up to them, even if I think it will be telling their children a lie. They should not be able to force the authorities to lie by describing the woman who gave birth to that baby as a "father" on the birth certificate, and they should not be able to force, eg, that baby's eventual teachers to refer to them as "Mr." or as the baby's dad. (And they shouldn't be able to force the children to continue to refer to them as "dad", either, if the children don't wish to.)

There's also the thing is that people can be bullshitters, whether they are trans or not. If someone claims they have a very bad knee and then runs a gruelling marathon with no treatment and no problems at all, I will be sceptical of their claims to have a very bad knee. If they claim to be dysphoric about their female body, and then go to a great deal of trouble to get pregnant, then I will be sceptical of their claims to be dysphoric.

And as another poster upthread said:

Transwomen make the news for their achievements in journalism, fashion, the arts, celeb ville, sports, trans activism, politics etc.

Transmen make the news for having babies.

Hmm, I wonder why that could be?

Sorry joystir I realise I wasn't careful enough with my wording...

Please take it as read that I didn't mean biologically male/female and that I really did mean 'living as/trans/masculine/feminine' - but not cis

Samphire - your aggressive post is the very reason I was hesitant to post this. Do not say so fucking what and label me as homo or transphobic when I'm merely trying to understand and have an adult discussion/debate where all views are welcome. I also went on to say regardless of the situation how difficult it must for people dealing with such issues.

Trans issues aside, the adoption process is not like buying a new car or adopting a cat - its an extremely difficult process, given their lifestyles they probably expected difficulties, adoptive children often have serious issues that need a lot of extra help, not everyone is cut out to be an adoptive parent. Perhaps they really do feel traumatised by the whole process of pregnancy and birth but their desire for children is that strong - I may be biologically female but I put myself through a lot of trauma to have my twins, completely worth it but still very difficult.

I have no idea what MNs take on this thread will be, but some of the posts here really do stray over the edge of homo and transphobia!

One of the many reasons I have changed my mind on these issues, Samphire, is that most trans activism is really, horribly, homophobic.

If two women want a baby, lovely, crack on. I know loads of women who have had babies with other women. It isn't a big deal. Women who have had babies who then tell me and everyone else that we should collude in a lie by naming them fathers, and reconfigure the whole language around childbirth to include males - no. Not going to do it.

I think Archery has it: *I have no objection at all to anyone having as much plastic surgery as they want, to reconfigure their bodies in any way that pleases them, even if it does not conform to what other people would want or think usual.

However, what people don't have the right to do is to force other people to collude with a lie.*

I always wonder why these cases focus solely on gender. You don't hear much about people identifying as a different race, do you? Because it would expose how horrifically racist your views would have to be. Imagine someone saying, "I identify as black, really, because I like hip-hop, and enjoy Jamaican cooking, and wish to pretend I have a sassy mother who doles out affection and admonishment in turn". Yet identifying as a different gender is somehow acceptable, because it's "your choice" and you're "not hurting anyone", when actually what you're doing is unravelling decades of feminism and gender equality by assigning specific traits and behaviours to specific genders.

A lot of women and girls feel traumatised by pregnancy and birth.

As if, suddenly, by insisting other people use different pronouns for you and having some surgery, you are then magically able to dress, talk, eat, behave and live in a totally different way than when you were "trapped" in the other gender to which you have arbitrarily assigned a different set of abilities.

There's a lot of discussion about gender fluidity and this is where I get more concerned.

If you have any discussions around race, and blacking up in particular, it comes down to the fact that race is not a costume you can take off when it suits you. Same with disability. So why is it acceptable to take womanhood off when it suits you? I don't really understand how it's different.

For those who think the weird claims and views are a minority of trans? India Willoughby is the more acceptable side of transwomen and look what a fucked up, bullying, deluded narcissist they turned out to be - that’s what often lies below the surface. Spend any time on likes of twitter and you can’t miss it. Even many the reasonable trans folk i originally started following and conversed with- often ended up showing a disturbing side, a complete break from reality in their claims- to say nothing of the aggression.

See, and here is the problem!

Saying comments are disgusting and abhorrent, why are they?

Saying that not accepting a biological man as a biological woman is in someway a system of discrimination, well, that's nothing short of madness. As previously stated, I have no problem with names and treatment. I have zero issues with people being whatever they choose to be... Why though, if I refuse to identify a woman as a man, does that make me a bully for doing so?

Take it this way. If you're 30 but feel 60, you identify as being 60... Does that then mean that you should be treated as and be entitled to the benefits of a 60 year old simply because that is what you identify as? If so, I'm claiming my pension now!

I'm not even remotely sorry to be honest, nor should I be. If any situation requires me to alter a universally accepted standpoint with nothing other than a persons particular feelings, it's already a non-starter. Be what you want, but, don't expect me to have to change to do so!

Samphire - your aggressive post is the very reason I was hesitant to post this. Do not say so fucking what and label me as homo or transphobic when I'm merely trying to understand and have an adult discussion/debate where all views are welcome. I also went on to say regardless of the situation how difficult it must for people dealing with such issues

Mmmmmm ... and I haven't seen Samphire make many contributions on trans threads at all...

I think that anyone should be able to live freely as they please, dress how they want, present how they want, love who they want. If they have the money to pay for it, and the good health to survive it, I have no objection at all to anyone having as much plastic surgery as they want, to reconfigure their bodies in any way that pleases them, even if it does not conform to what other people would want or think usual

I disagree with you here Annie. I don't think it boild down to choice and ability to pay. This is individualising thinking. I think there are bigger questions about medical ethics at stake here and also questions about the contexts in which people make choices. For example, a young woman I know went to Thailand for breast enlargement. Her partner at the time went with her and discussed with the surgeon how big he wanted her breasts to be. That's an extreme case, but most plastic surgery, or cosmetic surgery, takes place in a patriarchal society that embraces particular standards of beauty. This raises questions about 'free choice' for a start.

OP is about 2 women who are transitioning, a gay female couple. They want a baby before they both compete their transition and become a gay male couple, presumably. They make the decision that one of them will 'bite the bullet' and go through child birth before competing her/his transition. Yes, they want to have their cake and eat it! Luckily it is medically possible and there is no evidence to suggest that the child will come to any kind of harm

See, I knew transwomen of old for whom this would have been impossible because the body dysmorphia would simply not have allowed it. They would have never even have wanted it. It would have been an anathema.

That's what rings alarm bells for me here. If the individual in question can set aside her dysphoria for long enough to have a child then I'd personally be questioning whether hormones and radical surgery are really where it is at. Medical ethics again. And in a system where therapists are now prevented from challenging gender dysphoric clients too much and where (as posters with trans children have attested) medicalisation is the preferred course of treatment then I seriously wonder if anyoe is acting in the best interests of the pregnant one and their partner.

not read the whole thread but interested in this comment:

"I imagine in the future even people born men will be able to have womb transplants and be able to have babies. "

Where are they going to get the wombs from?

(Rhetorical question to an extent).

The undeserving poor.