Yes another trans thread

[NewMummy579]

I'm struggling to understand this documentary I'm watching on catch up called sex map of Britain 'the pregnant dad'. Two trans men in a relationship one of which is pregnant. He is having a home birth to avoid pronouns in the hospital and being wrongly identifies as 'she' or 'her' and struggling with body image now he has a pregnant belly.

If you are born female but believe you are in the wrong body and transition to live as a Male, surely it's not being unreasonable to expect that you therefore do not partake in female biological acts like pregnancy and giving birth??

The couple are quoted as saying 'oh one of us had to delay hormone treatment and bite the bullet in getting pregnant if we wanted to have a family'. If you both identify as a male couple then why not adopt as many gay couples do and give a child a good home?

After the baby is born, they refer to 'chest feeding' instead of breast feeding and say it's ridiculous when he needs to be put on the birth certificate as 'mother' since they gave birth, rather than as 2 fathers.

I'm perhaps being unreasonable and openly don't understand all aspects of this complicated gender topic but I'm seeing it a bit like having your cake and eating it - you either either identify/live as one sex or another and not both when it suits circumstance?

the word mother is used for parents who identify as women

No it isn't, @slookiroo . It's used for parents who are women. I don't identify as a woman at all. However I am a woman, and a mother.

I would imagine it would be more damaging for the child to be seen by peers calling their parent 'mother' when that parent is clearly not a woman

Butch women have been having babies forever. Another butch woman having a baby is nothing new or special. Gender nonconforming parents sometimes do get shit at the school gates, it's true, and sometimes their children do, too, but that's not a reason to be forced to lie and pretend that these parents are men.

Eh? I thought it was rather more about gestating and bearing a child?

Well, yes and no, YetAnother. It's for women who have given birth, certainly, but it's also for parents who are women, whether or not they've actually given birth. So, mothers who adopt, or the lesbian partners of women who did give birth, or stepmothers and so on, all mothers.

But my bottom line is that I will not call these parents "fathers" because they are not men, however much they want to be. If they want to call themselves men, and fathers, that's up to them, but I will not be forced to agree that this is the truth of it.

Well, yes and no, YetAnother. It's for women who have given birth, certainly, but it's also for parents who are women, whether or not they've actually given birth. So, mothers who adopt, or the lesbian partners of women who did give birth, or stepmothers and so on, all mothers

Oh fair enough. My bad! :)

I think I'm just going to agree to disagree. Butch women and transitioning men are not the same. I Will never understand why you think it affects you that these people have found a way to live their life and achieve their desires with which they are happy. As long as they love their child and are responsible parents (etc etc), people do not need to judge the decisions that are right for their set of circumstances.

I Will never understand why you think it affects you that these people have found a way to live their life and achieve their desires with which they are happy.

Because if it's enshrined in common practice, and in law, that someone who is male can say they are a woman and everyone has to go along with that (and vice versa, someone who is female claiming to be a man, as in this case), then women's services and women's provision will totally disappear.

If you have a daughter who applies for a women's scholarship, she will be competing with men. If you have a daughter who, god forbid, needs the services of a rape crisis centre or a domestic violence shelter, she in her trauma will be sharing those spaces with men. If she wants a female gynacologist to take her smear test, a 6'2 bloke with an adams apple and a beard could ask her to open her legs, and she would have no grounds for complaint.

If your daughter is a lesbian then she will be subjected to a lifetime of men pressuring her for sex, and then telling her she's a bigot for not having sex with them because they are lesbians too.

That's how it affects women.

Sloo it's an issue for the child isn't it, being raised by women who are claiming to be men? Howare they going to be able to guide her and support her through her own puberty and potential issues with his/her developing body if they have such denial and self hatred about their own bodies and lesbianism?

It's outdated to view gender dysphoria as a mental health condition.

What is it then?

From where I'm standing, feeling like you're 'in the wrong body', wanting to chop off perfectly healthy body parts, is very much a mental health issue. If I wanted to have my arm surgically removed because it 'feels wrong' I would be sectioned not indulged and rightly so.

I am a woman, I don't 'identify' as one. I don't do gender stereotypes. The only people who feel the need to 'identify' as women are men.

slookiroo
I Will never understand why you think it affects you that these people have found a way to live their life and achieve their desires with which they are happy.

Because the legislative changes they have already got, and are calling for now, affect our lives in negative and potentially dangerous ways.

Because normalising insanity, and condoning the illogical, is bad news for a healthy society in general.

Because people are being prosecuted for not calling mentally ill people what these mentally ill people want to be called when it comes to gender, yet in any other area of life if I were to insist on being called an electricity pylon, anyone referring to me as such would themselves be quite rightly considered bonkers. Because people are being attacked for choosing to engage with the world in a simple sex-based categorisation, that of male, female and rarely intersex, rather than a gender-obsessed categorisation insisted upon by some.

the word mother is used for parents who identify as women

The word mother is used for the female person who births the child, you mean. Nothing to do with what that person 'identifies' as.

Well, yes and no, YetAnother. It's for women who have given birth, certainly, but it's also for parents who are women, whether or not they've actually given birth. So, mothers who adopt, or the lesbian partners of women who did give birth, or stepmothers and so on, all mothers

Sorry, should have read the whole page before posting. Yes, mother can be used for a female caregiver when the child is adopted. Or yes, if the parents are lesbians then the child has 2 mothers.

Its about the sex of the caregiver. Not the 'identity'.

It's outdated to view gender dysphoria as a mental health condition. Obviously living as a trans person in our society can lead to mental health conditions

No it's trendy to move away from viewing it as mental health condition. But it's not outdated. It is a mental health condition. It's not possible to literally be born into the wrong body. There isn't any such thing as a soul.

If it were possible to be born into the wrong body then I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that I've actually erroneously been born into a disabled body and I'd like to identify as able-bodied please. I dream of hiking and swimming and dancing. I insist on society pretending I can do all those things. While we're at it I identify as a millionaire who has houses in three countries. If you don't allow me that, you're a bigot.

Biology stinks sometimes but there's no getting away from it.

I love how so many of you are all of a sudden doctors, educated enough to label transgender men or women ‘mentally unstable’.... it’s actually laughable. It’s not a mental illness. They were born into the wrong bodies and as a result usually suffer a hell of a lot of turmoil before ever getting the courage to make the decision to start the gender change process....

I honestly don’t know how it affects any person other than themselves whether they chose to use what ‘female’ anatomy they have left to carry a child .... the easiest way would of course be to do it naturally so if they haven’t completed their transition then why not? It makes them no less of a man just because they are using their bloody womb. Ughhh the ignorance.

Just let others live their lives. If it’s not hurting you, why worry?

They were born into the wrong bodies

But what does that mean? How can a body be 'wrong'?

You are accusing us of pretending to be medical professionals, but your confused post that merely replicates tumblr bollocks is far worse.

It makes them no less of a man just because they are using their bloody womb. Ughhh the ignorance.

Comedy gold. Did you really just type that with a straight face?

I love how so many of you are all of a sudden doctors, educated enough to label transgender men or women ‘mentally unstable’.... it’s actually laughable. It’s not a mental illness.

So are you a doctor who works with transgender people? I'd like to hear your educated perspective on it not being a mental illness then. Just to balance things up.

It’s not a mental illness. They were born into the wrong bodies

Please could you explain the biology behind this? I'd dearly love to understand the reality of this. Has someone found evidemce for people possessing souls? Is God in charge of a machine stuffing them in bodies and does he occasionally have a lapse in concentration? Despite sounding a little facetious I would genuinely like to understand the science of being born into the wrong body. It must be pretty ground-breaking stuff.

Also does it apply to someone bi-gender like the man/woman in this article? The man in that claims he switches gender totally involuntarily and that when he's a woman his driving gets poorer, for example. Although when he becomes a woman he's still able to send text messages to his wife as a man.

TiredConfusedMumma

I love how so many of you are all of a sudden doctors, educated enough to label transgender men or women ‘mentally unstable’.... it’s actually laughable. It’s not a mental illness.

What qualifies you to say it's not a mental illness? If I were to identify as an electricity pylon, do you believe I am mentally ill or just born into the wrong non-pylon structure?

They were born into the wrong bodies

As others have asked you, what does that mean? If gender is merely a social construct, how is a baby at 1 second old who is unaware of any social construct born into an incompatible body and sex?

I honestly don’t know how it affects any person other than themselves
Because of the reasons posters have stated above. Because it affects the child, those who deal with them and the labels the law now dictates they have to use against their own judgement, spaces for real women, and our safety.

It makes them no less of a man just because they are using their bloody womb.
That has got to be one of the most hilariously loopy things I've ever read on the internet.

They were born into the wrong bodies

That doesn't make any sense.

I challenge you to explain what you mean.

I honestly don’t know how it affects any person other than themselves

Then you haven't read the thread, @TiredConfusedMumma . Plenty of us have described exactly how it affects us.

If it’s not hurting you, why worry?

It is hurting me, and other women and girls. That's why i worry.

Interesting article for those who believe transgenderism is a mental illness and that there is no scientific basis for it.

sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Sorry correct link
sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

The article lost me at "This juxtaposes cisgender, or those who identify with their assigned gender" - Jesus Christ. When I was born they said "sorry you lost the genetic lottery - you're a girl". A sex wasn't assigned to me. It was observed. Thus began my training in gender - femininity in my case. I don't identify with the oppressive, patriarchal social construct of femininity in any way. I'm not cis. Cis is a slur.

It makes them no less of a man just because they are using their bloody womb. Ughhh the ignorance.

Except for the fact that they have xx chromosomes.

Who's the ignorant one again?

Just watched the show.. felt sorry for the mid wife who was corrected when she said any woman in labour would accept pain replied if offered and the other "dad" was pretty disgusted at this and Said..." any pregnant man". N she corrected herself..

I wonder if it will be weird for the child growing up ..