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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Table Manners

361 replies

ciele · 14/01/2018 20:53

AIBU to think such things are important?
I was brought up to consider such stuff as no elbows on the table, not eating with your mouth open, putting knife and fork together when you have finished as non negotiable.
My OH thinks these things are just the way my family was (read that as you will but I take it to mean shallow and overly concerned with the niceties).

OP posts:
LemonysSnicket · 15/01/2018 20:29

Knife and fork is just an easy way to show you’re done, eating with mouth closed is a MUST because it’s gross. Couldn’t care less about elbows so long as the person isn’t slouching ( bad for the back).

mommybunny · 15/01/2018 21:02

I'm probably one of the few who is actually more relaxed about table manners than her OH. My DH is almost obsessed with table manners, to the point where he has ruined meals with our (possibly dyspraxic) DD10, who still often uses her fingers to move food to her cutlery.

I'm American and so therefore my concept of table manners is automatically more relaxed from the get-go, though growing up we were required to use cutlery of course, not permitted to speak with our mouths full, not allowed to jump up and down from the table, not allowed to start eating till everyone was served, etc. But we also grew up with that (what seems to me now) really weird habit Americans have of cutting up all our food with fork in left hand and knife in right, then putting everything down and picking up with fork with the right hand to shovel everything in. One of my brothers bypassed all of that and doesn't even bother with a knife - he just puts a ton of force into cutting even things like meat with his fork, then picks it all up with his fork in his right fist. Even in my family that's mocked.

But my DH's very proper English family is on a whole other plane. Luckily I had moved abroad and adapted my way of eating to the "British/European" way of keeping knife in right hand and fork in left for the whole meal before I'd met him, or I'd probably have failed the first lunch his mother made for me. Meals were always served in the dining room with a perfectly laid table, crystal glasses, silver salt cellars, the works. MIL used to get extremely cross if people didn't start to eat as soon as they'd received their plates from her, because in that family hot food was everything, and it was considered an insult not to eat the food at its best. There's a bit of a hierarchy in serving people: little children first (because they were usually the hungriest), then "strangers", then "in-laws" (like me), then "family" with the "host" last. She never minded if others had finished before she had started. Table manners such as those discussed here were taken for granted.

DH therefore has a very overdeveloped sense of what is acceptable and what isn't at the table. He insists on cutlery being held in the "correct" hands and don't even think about putting elbows on the table. I kind of agree that putting elbows on the table looks slobby - for a few minutes of your day you can afford to sit up straight and show some respect to the person who cooked your meal - but the cutlery thing drives me nuts. As long as cutlery is being used I couldn't care less which hand uses it!

I think one of the drivers of etiquette/table manners is to draw as little attention to yourself in the act of eating (which is, let's face it, a rather "animal" activity Grin) as possible. Another is, as mentioned above, showing respect to the person who cooked the meal. It's in that context that I enforce manners at the table. If my DCs are talking with their mouths full, it calls attention to the food, not the words. If they're eating with fingers it shows them behaving like babies/toddlers, not the pre-teens they are. If they're getting up from the table without asking it calls attention to their ingratitude for the meal. I'd be mortified if my DCs showed any of these traits eating at a friend's house. But if a friend (or friend's parents) shunned them because they ate with the fork in their right hand I'd say "meh. Good riddance."

mommybunny · 15/01/2018 21:02

I'm probably one of the few who is actually more relaxed about table manners than her OH. My DH is almost obsessed with table manners, to the point where he has ruined meals with our (possibly dyspraxic) DD10, who still often uses her fingers to move food to her cutlery.

I'm American and so therefore my concept of table manners is automatically more relaxed from the get-go, though growing up we were required to use cutlery of course, not permitted to speak with our mouths full, not allowed to jump up and down from the table, not allowed to start eating till everyone was served, etc. But we also grew up with that (what seems to me now) really weird habit Americans have of cutting up all our food with fork in left hand and knife in right, then putting everything down and picking up with fork with the right hand to shovel everything in. One of my brothers bypassed all of that and doesn't even bother with a knife - he just puts a ton of force into cutting even things like meat with his fork, then picks it all up with his fork in his right fist. Even in my family that's mocked.

But my DH's very proper English family is on a whole other plane. Luckily I had moved abroad and adapted my way of eating to the "British/European" way of keeping knife in right hand and fork in left for the whole meal before I'd met him, or I'd probably have failed the first lunch his mother made for me. Meals were always served in the dining room with a perfectly laid table, crystal glasses, silver salt cellars, the works. MIL used to get extremely cross if people didn't start to eat as soon as they'd received their plates from her, because in that family hot food was everything, and it was considered an insult not to eat the food at its best. There's a bit of a hierarchy in serving people: little children first (because they were usually the hungriest), then "strangers", then "in-laws" (like me), then "family" with the "host" last. She never minded if others had finished before she had started. Table manners such as those discussed here were taken for granted.

DH therefore has a very overdeveloped sense of what is acceptable and what isn't at the table. He insists on cutlery being held in the "correct" hands and don't even think about putting elbows on the table. I kind of agree that putting elbows on the table looks slobby - for a few minutes of your day you can afford to sit up straight and show some respect to the person who cooked your meal - but the cutlery thing drives me nuts. As long as cutlery is being used I couldn't care less which hand uses it!

I think one of the drivers of etiquette/table manners is to draw as little attention to yourself in the act of eating (which is, let's face it, a rather "animal" activity Grin) as possible. Another is, as mentioned above, showing respect to the person who cooked the meal. It's in that context that I enforce manners at the table. If my DCs are talking with their mouths full, it calls attention to the food, not the words. If they're eating with fingers it shows them behaving like babies/toddlers, not the pre-teens they are. If they're getting up from the table without asking it calls attention to their ingratitude for the meal. I'd be mortified if my DCs showed any of these traits eating at a friend's house. But if a friend (or friend's parents) shunned them because they ate with the fork in their right hand I'd say "meh. Good riddance."

Dildals · 15/01/2018 21:09

I only recently found out (from DH) that apparently you are not allowed to use your fork to scoop up food, but you are only allowed to prick food with it.

We haven't had a rice dish yet since this disclosure, so in case you were wondering ... I don't know either!

Is this true or is this another sign of my DH's slight analness (is that a word?)

raindropsandsunshine · 15/01/2018 21:15

@mommybunny Oh I've heard that about the way American culture means that sometimes people cut food first - do they cut the whole plateful first? I'd imagine that leads to food cooling down very quickly.

RoseWhiteTips · 15/01/2018 21:23

Absolutely these things matter. Bad manners and poor etiquette are uncalled for.

RoseWhiteTips · 15/01/2018 21:28

But eating rice with a knife and fork?!? Good luck with that. Ha

skippykips · 15/01/2018 21:35

Elbows on table winds me right up!
Until my DD(10) asked me what valid reason is it bad manners!
The only reply I could give was maybe it is to do with posture, or even it may be because it looks lazy to the person who has prepared your meal and you can't even be bothered to sit correctly whilst eating it.
Either way, she now eats and pops her elbows on table. Every now and then she will give me a little wink just to remind me of my rule I had no reason to my knowledge to why I should enforce!
However, at her Grans house or eating out she will keep elbows off table - just incase!

mommybunny · 15/01/2018 21:39

Some do cut the whole plateful first, some (for example, my Southern, considered themselves more "genteel" relatives) would cut, swap, eat, swap over, cut, swap, etc. the whole meal. I honestly can't remember what I used to do!

It wasn't till I was at university, being taught German by a Hungarian, that I learned that Europeans considered us savages because the way we ate would allow a hand to stay on our laps.

mrsharrison · 15/01/2018 21:40

Does anyone know why cutting the nose off the brie is considered rude and common?

itsalldyingout · 15/01/2018 21:48

Definitely, mouth closed.

I had a very rare night at a hotel replacing the guest's other friend who was ill. We had access to the Executive Lounge, where alcohol and canapes were being served.

I was taken aback to see two little girls running wild in there with their grandparents as I was under the impression that maybe it was more of an adult kind of thing (I obviously don't go on holiday very often!).

Then I was shocked to realise they weren't wearing shoes - when they had their feet up on the chairs and tables. Then, just as we started eating, we heard the disgusting noise of the two girls eating with their mouths open, spraying half-eaten food out as they talked. We were both put off our own food with this charming little display.

I could not for the life of me understand why the adults didn't tell them to close their mouths when chewing nor to stop talking with their mouths full.

They also opened the large jar of nuts for the children and allowed them to take handfuls out instead of getting up and using the supplied ladle to place smaller amounts in the little dishes meant for them.

They were quick enough to ask my friend to leave if she was going to use bad language in front of the girls when my friend dropped her glass and uttered "shit" under her breath when it broke.

We learned the next day that they'd lodged a complaint about the broken glass and were planning to sue over one little girl stepping on a bit of it.

Can't say I'm shocked at that, but I am sorry to see children being brought up like that.

QueenUnicorn · 15/01/2018 22:04

It always seems that people ask me a question when I have a big mouthful, then proceed to watch me try and quickly chew it up as they await the answer to their question. There is no quick way to chew up food I have discovered....

maradesbois · 15/01/2018 22:05

mrsharrison I don’t see how it matters for brie as the cheese is the same all the way through but cutting the nose off certain cheeses (blue ones or truffle filled brie for example) is a no no as you get all the best middle bits and deprive others who get left with the edge, cutting like a slice of cake is the polite way to do it as much more equal.

mrsharrison · 15/01/2018 22:07

Maradesbois that makes sense thanks.

Topseyt · 15/01/2018 22:26

Chew with your mouth closed is my main stipulation.

I'm not at all bothered about "no elbows on the table" and see it as ridiculous. A rule for the sake of having a rule if ever there was one. I do d it both natural and comfortable to put my own elbows on the table and have no intention of stopping because it hurts nobody.

Greensleeves · 15/01/2018 22:29

We've taught ours proper table manners and made sure they know when it's appropriate to use them (dinner out with GPs etc) but we don't insist on very stringent rules at home. We run a very relaxed house and my main priority is that my boys (who are now teenagers) feel contented and able to be themselves at home. I don't want them feeling picked at and scrutinised all the time, I wouldn't want that for myself.

MyPantsCantGoHigher · 15/01/2018 23:06

My SIL eats hunched over her plate with her arms resting on the table, elbows sticking out, cutlery pointing up in the air, mouth open.

She looks like a badly brought up, uneducated pig. She's actually extremely well educated but badly brought up.

I teach my DCs good tables manners so that whatever walk of life they find themselves in, they are able to eat without people thinking of them what I think of my SIL.

Judgmental, yes. Shallow, probably. Just the way the world is, definitely.

NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom · 15/01/2018 23:23

Mouths closed when eating (unless you have a bad cold and then I'll allow a hand held over the mouth instead)

Elbows off the table whilst actually eating

Use knife and fork together

Don't pick up food with your hands

Don't wipe your hands on your clothes

Please and thank you when passing condiments etc

Don't talk with your mouth full

These are my non-negotiables and things I also had to abide by as a child. Sadly, when we've had my children's friends over for meals, hardly any of these are adhered to - children from 'naice' middle-class backgrounds that you'd except to have some basic manners instilled. Apparently not. I was brought up by a single mum on a council estate and had manners in all areas drilled into me from the word go.

HannaSolo · 15/01/2018 23:27

Re: nose off the Brie I'd assume it's because of the way cheese ripens.

If it's served in a wedge by cutting of the tip of the triangle you are taking the "whole" of the piece that's the ripest (and most yummy) and also taking a piece that only has rind on 2 sides.

If you slice (in thin triangles matching the shape of the cheese) everyone gets a 3 rind piece with the same level of ripeness along the length of the slice and equally everyone gets the same size slice (if you don't slice in triangles then you just and up with a small runty triangle of end rind).

sashh · 16/01/2018 05:03

Does anyone know why cutting the nose off the brie is considered rude and common?

In France it is rude, I think it is saying something incredibly rude to your host.

Rice with a knife and fork - easy if you have been taught that from being a child.

BTW if I'm in a Chinese restaurant I DO pick up my bowl to eat and 'shovel' with chopsticks.

deste · 16/01/2018 07:57

“I don’t give a flying fuck about table manners” that says it all. Your children will be the ones who are eating like a chimpanzees tea party, not something to be proud of. Manners are a life skill. Eating a whole sausage or potatoe etc off a fork without cutting it up is the worst for me. Eating ice cream off a spoon but not taking the whole lot, why, just put less on the spoon. Putting your cutlery together at the end of the meal, how hard can it be . It also lets people know you are finished so they can clear the table. Speaking with your mouth full, eating with your mouth open, not nice for the people sitting next to you. Do your children a favour and teach them manners unless of course you haven’t a clue yourselves. Do you really want people judging your children for something so simple to teach.

AnnettePrice · 16/01/2018 08:44

Manners cost nothing
But it is a life skill that will reflect on you.

Why would you not want good table manners? It won't hinder you at all, but it could help you get a promotion, get a second date etc.

Actively trying not to have good table manners is just plain weird.

Fullerhouse · 16/01/2018 08:56

My mum was always easy going about table manners but my grandparents were not and they watched us why she worked. I think it’s good they installed table manners on us indonthe same with my children now. When my friend comes over for dinner I find her nearl a teen dc to have the worst table manners, he will get down from the table to play then come back have a mouthful and run off, also when eating out he has a iPad or phone propped up to watch why eating. I can understand it more with younger children the parents properly just want to enjoy one meal but a nearly teen Shock that’s terrible manners in my opinion. Also I have this thing about repetitive noise so people who smack their lips together eating is the worst I’ve actually contemplated stabbing them with my fork Blush I don’t know what it is I’m generally a very layer back person but that just makes me boil lol

TheDowagerCuntess · 16/01/2018 09:07

Do your children a favour and teach them manners unless of course you haven’t a clue yourselves.

I think that is often the issue.

beachygirl · 16/01/2018 09:19

When I took my first school party abroad I was appalled by their manners: no cutlery, leaning across table to grab as much as possible from shared dishes, wandering about the room, baseball caps on, telling staff they hated the food. Each time afterwards we had manners lessons before we travelled; the kids loved it and had great fun 'playing posh' and pointing out all the faux pas in other school parties! I think some of it stuck too!

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