Table Manners

[ciele]

AIBU to think such things are important?
I was brought up to consider such stuff as no elbows on the table, not eating with your mouth open, putting knife and fork together when you have finished as non negotiable.
My OH thinks these things are just the way my family was (read that as you will but I take it to mean shallow and overly concerned with the niceties).

"How does tearing bread show respect for yourself or others? Or pressing peas onto the back of a fork or not putting butter onto the side plate first or eating soup taking the spoon away from you?"

I think the bread tearing rather than cutting is not so important, but taking a whole slab of bread and buttering the whole thing then biting from the whole thing looks a bit heavy handed and greedy. Not cutting may just be because the plate is small and there is no need, but I am not sure.

Peas on the back of the fork - is to avoid the greedy look of shovelling a lot of peas at once.

Butter on the side plate first - so you can use as much of it as you need but not more, without dipping into the main butter dish every time.

Soup away from you is to avoid splashing it onto to the front of your clothes.

What I would find difficult to do, is say eat a banana with a fruit knife and fork. What do etiquettees here think of those sorts of refinements?

Not RTFT yet but I trained as a silver service waitress many years ago - it's hard to clear plates if diners have their elbows on the table. So a courtesy to waiting staff, not an arbitrary rule.

@mailTo

Despite benefitting from it, I don't like the idea of snobbish barriers to entry although you make it sound like some kind of inner circle you were lucky enough to observe.

Don't be disingenuous, I said nothing about barriers, I just said it can be handy to know things even if you don't want to put them into practice in your own life, it can be like knowing a language. Ah yes, I was so lucky, face pressed up against the window observing those with 'class privelege'! Wtf?

I think eating is such a horrible thing that doing it as neatly and quietly as possible is paramount to everyone's enjoyment!! So I am a totally draconian Victorian parent and my children may not eat with their mouths open, take food off their forks with their teeth, must hold their cutlery correctly and in the right hands, mustn't talk with their mouths full, wait until everyone has been served to start etc etc.

I am often complimented on their manners - people do notice and do judge, whatever people say here .

You didn't mention barriers, you spoke about "different worlds". I wasn't disingenuous.

You, amongst others, seem to hold arbitrary rules of good manners as sacrosanct and that an understanding of what's "proper" is all so important. You cherish compliments on children's manners and look down on those without the understanding you have.

It certainly seems to be an affliction which has been dropped by those who traditionally cared.

"I just said it can be handy to know things even if you don't want to put them into practice in your own life"

Yes. Aspirational.

I think that good manners, perfect manners, are about nothing other than making others feel at ease. Maybe waiters and waitresses clearing a table (elbows in and cutlery at 6-12) or whatever else.

@Panicmode1

"must hold their cutlery ... in the right hands"

Yes, fuck the left-handed wankers. Disgusting slobs!

If these are the compliments you're waiting on then you need better friends or a hobby.

@mailTo
You didn't mention barriers, you spoke about "different worlds". I wasn't disingenuous.

Correct, I didn't mention barriers, you did. Maybe you were just inaccurate, not disingenuous

You, amongst others, seem to hold arbitrary rules of good manners as sacrosanct and that an understanding of what's "proper" is all so important.

Not true, I merely said that it can be a way of respecting others as it is not pleasant (for example) to see the food in someone's mouth while they're eating.

You cherish compliments on children's manners and look down on those without the understanding you have.
Not true, I didn't mention compliments nor children at all.

*"I just said it can be handy to know things even if you don't want to put them into practice in your own life"

Yes. Aspirational.*

This was in reference to how I got a great p/t job as a teenager doing silver-service waitressing. Hardly aspirational.

I think that good manners, perfect manners, are about nothing other than making others feel at ease. Maybe waiters and waitresses clearing a table (elbows in and cutlery at 6-12) or whatever else.

Eh yes, that is what I said (waitressing)

@Panicmode1

If these are the compliments you're waiting on then you need better friends or a hobb

I didn't ask for compliments! I've lots of good friends thanks, no hobb though. Is it cos of my manners d'you think?

I see instilling good manners in my dc as an essential part of general education as well as making mealtimes at home and in restaurants a pleasant experience for all. Most of the things mentioned have a practical purpose as well eg holding your knife properly helps you to cut rather than tear at your food. I also think that staying at the table until everyone has finished or at least not just downing the food and rushing off teaches dc that mealtimes are for conversation and not to be rushed. This is nothing to do with harking back to a Victorian ethos but rather teaching children that eating together can be a pleasure and not an endurance test.

Surely though @borntobequiet that's lack of respect for others more than why it's bad manners to have your elbows on the table. Not moving for staff who are clearing away plates or not even acknowledging their existence is way ruder than 'lacking manners' of resting elbows on table.

When ours were small the only rule we were very strict about was pants will be worn at meal times :))))

They seem to have grown up fairly civilised

I agree about instilling table manners as soon as possible. Although as can be seen from the comments here, what constitutes good table mannners varies greatly.

We did BLW with DS, we started out at the table with a booster rather than a high chair, so he's always been able to copy from what we're doing. He's only 22 months, so hasn't really got any concept of manners at all, but he's learning to turn take when dishing up if it's a shared dish like a lasagne, or if I've put sides out in serving dishes rather than straight onto the plates and to ask for things like more food or a drink rather than grabbing which is about all I think is reasonable to expect at that age.

I don't mind elbows on the table,and I don't like needing permisson to leave the table for any reason (simply saying 'excuse me' is enough in my opinion). I don't like talking with food in mouths or chewing with an open mouth. We do the cutlery thing, as PP have said, it helps waiting staff when eating out so I think it's a good habit to be in. Also starting before everyone is plateed up,that varies on circumstance in this house. In theory, we wait, but I've never quite cracked the timing of a roast, so I'm often still faffing about last minute, so I always tell people to tuck in while I finish faffing or their dinner would be cold before it's started. I think you take your cue from the cook on that one personally. Thanking the cook at the beginning or end of the meal isn't necessary I suppose, but I think it's nice.

The one I will NEVER force, is using cutlery in the 'correct' hands. I for some reason, can't. I'm clumsy and messy, yet can manage perfectly well if I swap my knife and fork over. So long as you're using your cutlery neatly and sensibly, that's enough in my opinion.

@vespertillio

Misquotes and strawmen.

You even answered questions addressed directly to others by refuting the premise.

Other than that, fascinating!

You never know where you are going to end up in life, if you are asked to have dinner with a head of state knowing what to do is one thing less to worry about.

I might eat a my tea on a tray on my lap but I do know which cutlery to use and when to start/stop eating at a 'posh do'.

The one I will NEVER force, is using cutlery in the 'correct' hands. I for some reason, can't. I'm clumsy and messy, yet can manage perfectly well if I swap my knife and fork over

I don't understand this one, knives are designed to be used in your right hand. One of my friends uses his cutlery the 'wrong' way round. He doesn't cut meat he 'holds' it with his knife and pulls with his fork.

Strangely if he has just a knife for something like buttering bread he has no problem having the knife in his right hand.

if you are asked to have dinner with a head of state knowing what to do is one thing less to worry about.

What like eating a cheese burger in bed with Mr Trump? How does he hold his cutlery?

I have minimal standards, I think- use the cutlery provided rather than your fingers, do not talk with your mouth full, close your mouth when chewing, try not to do noisy slurping, don't burp all over the place. Other than that, who cares, if people want to have kittens over the way others hold knives or butter their bread or place their elbows that's up to them, but I can't be arsed to care about it.

mailTo
I don't know what your problem is or why you have such beef with me - I said it can be handy to know about what might be deemed the 'correct' way of doing things in certain settings. That's it. It can also be handy to: read posts correctly/to not have a generalised rant headed by a misreading of someone's post/not take offence by perceiving snobbery where there is none/control your temper. Etc! Maybe you need to aspire to not getting your knickers in a twist over nothing.

I think we can conclude, that we all draw a line in a different place on the list of 'basic manners', good manners, and etiquette, but that the overwhelming majority feel that it can only be a positive thing to teach your dc manners - be that eating or otherwise. Eating, however, is such a big part of socialising with others, it's a pretty good place to start.

What like eating a cheese burger in bed with Mr Trump? How does he hold his cutlery?

I doubt Trump ever eats anything that requires actual cutlery. Burgers, pizza, fried chicken - all with his little hands.

I know some people who have impeccable table manners but are horrible unpleasant individuals. I know who I'd rather sit next to.

Mouth open or talking when chewing = bad manners because it isn't nice for other people to see masticated food dripping our of your mouth

Elbows on the table = not bothered about that. Doesn't make for an unpleasant experience for other diners?

Using fork in your right hand to shovel = it is bad manners but I do it

Using fingers = bad manners unless its an appropriate situation

Knife and fork together - indicates you are done so good practice

Asking before you get down = yes too right, shows respect for other diners. Same as waiting to start until everyone else is ready.

MailTo - thank you for your charming riposte to my post. I don't ask for compliments or wait for them, but they are often given; which leads me to think that whatever the libertarians on this thread think, people DO notice good manners. I have plenty of friends, lots of hobbies and don't really see how either of those things correlate with me teaching my children to eat nicely at the table.

I am attending an event at Buckingham Palace next month and am glad that I know what the etiquette is, that I was taught how to curtsey (albeit a very long time ago) and that (probably) my manners will pass muster - it's one less thing to worry about (like what to wear).

(And FWIW my father, who is a staunch stickler for manners, is left handed and seems to have managed to eat with cutlery in the 'correct' hands his whole life).

Table manners are important to me, but I’m only really insistent on ones which will make a difference as they grow up.
Definitely no eating with your mouth open, it gives me the boak if I see anyone doing it.
Using cutlery (don’t care which hand as long as you’re using it)
No talking with your mouth full.

I want them to be able to go out for a meal without embarrassing themselves, or anyone else. So I’m strict on table manners for their own sake.

Not RTFT yet but I trained as a silver service waitress many years ago - it's hard to clear plates if diners have their elbows on the table. So a courtesy to waiting staff, not an arbitrary rule.

Oooooh interesting - I shall endeavour to have my elbows off when in restaurants!

NRTWT but non-negotiable here are:

• closed mouth when eating
• do not speak with your mouth full
• knives do not go in mouths, only spoons/forks
• used cutlery to be placed properly on the plate when finished (saves the table linen / surface too)

I have a phobia about open-mouthed & really loud chewing noises too which makes things difficult so I try to have a little background music on too!

Burping at the table - horrible.

Table manners matter.

My friend told me the story of how she almost died of embarrassment when she took her new boyfriend (NBF) to a family dinner celebrating a cousin's birthday. Over 30 family members sitting in a fancy dining room.
NBF began to eat and Friend wanted to hide under the table. He ate like a complete pig. His elbow was at eye level, fork held horizontal in his fist and plate lifted off the table. Chopping his food with the side of the fork, scooping food into his mouth and chewing with his mouth wide open so that everyone could see (and hear) what he was chomping on. This was a pretty fancy pants restaurant too.

My friend eventually married him (after she taught him table manners) and he's a lovely fella. He eats perfectly normally as far as I can tell.

I cannot understand anyone saying table manners are "Victorian" or stuck up or unnecessary etc. Manners aren't a bad thing at all! How could they be?