To think the no pubes thing is a trend....

[inmyshoos]

My previous career had me seeing people's genitals on a daily basis. Most had full pubic hair. Now I can see (mostly on naked attraction) that fully shaved is the fashion.
But was slightly surprised when a 50 something friend of mine said he prefers shaven as I assumed he would be less 'trendy' like me with my 80s stylefanny
Is it just a personal preference?? In my day at work it was defo rare to see fully shaved. Out of 20 people you'd be lucky if 2 were bald!

I didn't believe Honky's post either and the dripfeed was irritating but her whole post seemed posted purely to be inflammatory and it was. It's not tolerable for me because pretending that women are stupid seems such a knobbishly patriarchal thing to do.

I do believe the young girls are pressurised into sex that they don't want, including anal sex, because there is such a prevalence of porn. I think it starts with the suggestion that if a girl doesn't do x, y, z then she will 'never have a boyfriend' and 'won't fit in with her peers'. That is a woeful indictment of our society. I purposely haven't mentioned girlfriends (as in a lesbian relationship) because I don't believe the pressure is there - or I'm not aware of it if it is. I don't believe that women are avid watchers of porn with a view to trying to impose on their partners that they should be doing x, y, z.

I'm doing the very best I can to imprint on my daughter that she is a worthwhile person in her own right and she has the right - and the ability - to resist peer pressure and the insistence that she should do things to 'fit in'. I've never 'fitted in' myself, always been a square peg in a round hole and I've liked that fine. My mum despaired of me when I was young because of this but now seems to be almost proud of it.

I was thinking of some feminist (in my opinion) icons today and why they have such broad appeal. Gwen Steffani is one such person in my view because even though many of her songs are parental advisory and are very much more sex-focused than I would want my children to listen to at the moment, the message is powerful that 'women are in the driving seat where men are concerned'. It's a start. There are many others of my television generation (actresses such as Patricia Routledge and Maggie Steed), very much marching to the beats of their own drums and I like that. It's the sort of stance that is deserving of more attention and certainly more focus than hair removal.

Just idly musing. This is a really interesting thread.

@Slarti the point about being pressurised into sex was that specifically it was anal sex. That is the woman was ok with PIV but said did not want anal.

I linked to an article up thread that suggests many young men had a view - no meant yes and yes meant anal.

There have been various studies. I can link to them of you like.

Interestingly in one case the people compiling the story ignored the studies findings and chose to discount the views of the women in it. So again it's not a straw man if I take seriously what a previous poster said.

I do believe the young girls are pressurised into sex that they don't want, including anal sex, because there is such a prevalence of porn. I think it starts with the suggestion that if a girl doesn't do x, y, z then she will 'never have a boyfriend' and 'won't fit in with her peers'. That is a woeful indictment of our society

^ this

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe I agree with you about wider issues.

Whether anyone believes a previous poster or not, hopefully we recognise there are issues at play about acceptance and coercion. These are the things that bother me. Like many others.

So much agree about need to teach our children.

Not that interested in individual posters sex or love/lives but more why people do things or if they feel they have no choice.

Anyway must go cook tea!

Yes to that, Italiangreyhound (I must look up what these look like) - it's fine and dandy if everyone's consenting - even 'meh' about something just as long as consent is there. If it isn't then that is really something that needs looking into. It's just such a sensitive subject and people who are either aware - or have the niggly feeling - that consent wasn't there, can get defensive.

I'm actually more interested in feminism the more I post with you all and I've really appreciated the patient explanations because sometimes it takes a while to go in/realise that you're going to have to go against the grain on something you hadn't a notion wasn't ok.

But Lying, you have said yourself that you agree to something your partner wants when you don't like it. How is that different to a young girl agreeing to do something she doesn't like because her sexual partner wants iher to. I really don't see the difference.

Posters on here are burying their heads in the sand if they believe that young girls are not being coerced and pressured into sexual practises they would rather not do.
Boys and young men are watching porn and becoming desensitized regarding sexual practises.

For some of them, straight forward sex is not exciting enough.
Women on here should be more interested in protecting young girls, than arguing about pubic hair.

Because, shhhfastasleep, despite the prodigious application of wrinkle-smoothing creams, I am not a young girl. I don't know what age group you mean by young girl but I'm guessing that this is anywhere between 12-17ish? Much of that sample group would not be able to consent to sex - any sex - in the first place. I can.

If I say that I don't like something, it might be as benign as curly hair (on me, before anybody leaps on that). I do not like having curly hair. It snags and tangles and never looks tidy - so I straighten it. My husband very much likes my curly hair so sometimes, for shits and giggles, I'll let it stay curly for his delight. I don't like it myself but I'll let him twirl his fingers into my ringlets (that sounds dreadful), but I won't be happy until it's straight again. He often does that for me if I'll sit still

To me, it's very much the same thing. Anal sex didn't hurt me, it just felt odd and did nothing for me. And I gave consent. So whilst it doesn't do it for me and I can't say that I like it, it's on my list of 'meh'.

I think perhaps your question/this issue rather comes down to interpretation of "I don't like it" as a response. For some people this statement will be an "absolutely NOT, under no circumstances", but for some people (including myself) it's a "Really? Oh go on then".

The confusion lies in the fact that for myself, I would say "I don't like it" for mushrooms in the first instance and for curly hair and anal sex in the second.

Does that long-winded explanation help?

LyingWichenTheWardrobe
You've twisted yourself into a pretzel there.
A really good example of why men think , No means Yes!

It's quite different to talk of safe, consensual behaviour against the expectations on young women (girls) by casual boyfriends of anal sex. I am sorry if you see that as a straw man. I don't.

I think (hope) that you've misunderstood my post. You previously tried to imply that I disagreed with Honky because I didn't believe girls were coerced into sex. I hadn't said that. That's the strawman I was referring to. I had hoped it was a genuine mistake but you have since replied in a way that continues to attribute views to me that I did not express whilst ignoring every part of my post that addressed the actual reasons I disbelieved Honky's post. Please, do not continue with this attempt to paint me as someone who is either sceptical or dismissive of young people being coerced into doing things they don't want to.

Wulf, No, I don't believe I have. I don't sleep with 'men', I sleep with my husband and he is very clear about what's ok and what isn't. I can only talk to my own situation and experience.

Actually, Wulf, do YOU understand consent? I could absolutely ADORE anal sex - or any sex - and at ANY point of the process I could withdraw that consent. My husband would stop, immediately. I know he would, I trust him to do that. Likewise I would afford him the same right to stop something he didn't want me to carry on doing.

I'm finding your suggestion that my post was 'a good example of why men think 'No' means 'Yes'' a bit off really.

LyingWitchinTheWardriobe

Anal sex didn't hurt me, it just felt odd and did nothing for me. And I gave consent.
I think perhaps your question/this issue rather comes down to interpretation of 'I don't like it' as a response. For some people this statement will be an "absolute NOT, under no circumstances" , but for some people (including myself) it's a "Really? Oh go on then".

Have you really just said this and then can't understand why some men might get mixed messages.
Btw. I appreciate that you only sleep with your husband but most men would not keep asking to do something that their partner has said "I don't like it".
And most women would not keep saying, it was ok.
You are by your own words consenting to something that does nothing for you and you do not like.

Wulf, I've explained my position very clearly. Men do not get mixed messages and from my post it's clear that even for anal sex, I do not say to my husband "I don't like it". I would say, "Oh go on then". There is a clear and distinct difference there and my consent can be withdrawn at any stage.

There are lots of things that don't 'do it for me' (non-sexual) and I consent to those. It's you who is making this about sex and you cannot answer for most women either.

If you want to debate the point that's fine but can you just ask straight out rather than making 'twisting/pretzel' comments please.

• Men do not get mixed messages from ME.

I'll add to that and say that we need to start impressing on boys/men that they get clear and very definite consent before they do ANYTHING, not wait for consent to be given.

It's up to the person taking affirmative action to obtain consent. It's all and well if girls/women are educated to be cognisant of that fact and know that they can refuse/withdraw consent when they want to - but boys/men must obtain it first, not just assume or act without it.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe glad to hear you saying you are interested in femonosn more and more.

@shhhfastasleep I kmoe you asked someone else not me about the difference between consenting when not keen and young girls being coerced.

Personally, think consent is not just about enjoyment. I went through a fairly long phase of being very bored by sex. I still did it but wasn't that into it.

My partner was my dh. It was consensual. Whenever I said I'm not that into it my dh backed off, he did not want to push me. Other times I felt equally not that into it but I did it and sometimes enjoyed it. But always it was consensual.

@Slarti I am sorry if I have misinterpreted you. I don't believe I've done it on purpose.

I'm just now quite confused what we are disagreeing about or even if we are disagreeing?

You don't need to answer me or engage but if you wish to this is my position....

I don't understand the continual reference to one poster. We all appear to be agreeing about coercion and porn's influence over (young) men, which includes expectations of anal sex. Is that correct?

If so. I don't really care if what one poster said was true because the expectation/concerns voiced by that poster appear to be what some of us are talking about.

Does that makes sense? Anyway, again apologies. I am not trying to paint you any way and I am sorry if that is how it is coming across.

My dh is still my partner! Don't know where the past tense came from!

Sorry, clarification, "....I don't really care if what one poster said was true..." I mean I do care about real people but even if the example was false we are expressing views we all believe this is common.

I never knew until I read a report on teenage sex when dd was about 11.

Yes, I am quite naive!

Personally I've always found it so unbearably itchy to shave it, it put me off. And it's not something I'd bother getting waxed. (I've even stopped going to hair dressers as I can cut a basic bob and fringe my self.)

But mine is a neat triangle. I'm going to trim it tomorrow actually as pregnancy is making it grow and it's getting awkwardly in the way a lot, so I can understand those that so it as it's so unruly!

I think it is an increasing trend. I worry about the reasons people (young girls) do it- not acceptable etc sexually not to. I worry young men will start to be unaccepting of women unless shaved. I'm glad ds knows I have a 'furry bit' to normalise what a female body looks like. I know I'm not bothered myself as my mum never did anything with hers.

A recent book I bought about the facts of life for children, although extremely detailed and accurate, has all the pubic parts under swim costumes. Didn't even show under arm hair. So I found a second hand copy of the Claire Raynor body book to back it up with!

Wulf

I have the /Really? Must we? Go on then/ attitude to sex all the time. I don't want or need sex at all but still consent to it.

Italiangreyhound, what you're posting makes sense to me, I just had to read it in bits, but it's clear to me.
=== slight hijack
I also looked up what Italian Greyhounds are... and I want at least seven. I'd like more than that, I'd like to fill the house with them, they are just beautiful.
=== back on topic

*Ekphrasis, I think that's a really salient point that 'young men will start not wanting women unless they're shaved because of the porn industry'. I think that's true. It's kind of the point I was making about Gwen Steffani earlier. Her mandate seems feminist indeed to me - "Men - you are lucky to have a woman pay you any interest at all" whilst at the same time imprinting this message on girls/women. I think that if we actually did that, the porn industry would cease to matter - hair/no-hair, it wouldn't matter because men would be confronted by women who know their worth and wouldn't accept this sort of exclusionary behaviour for something as arbitrary as hair, ffs.

How about we stop elevating the porn industry to anything approaching 'interesting' or 'significant'? And teaching our children that it's just an industry and it bears no relation to what real women are like or what relationships should be like. I imagine that's been done - rinse and repeat though - so why is the message still so focused on hair?

Most girls/women are not 'in the industry', they're doing other jobs where they will not end up naked or on film. Since they're in the majority, they should surely hold the cards? They are the custodians of their own bodies and men are fortunate indeed to have access.

That's the message I'm giving my daughter anyway. Porn isn't real life and people don't look like that. The camera always lies and photoshop is testament to that on a real life example that girls and boys have ready access to - they can see the distortion for themselves.

Tansilie, I'm very glad to see your post. It's difficult to explain sometimes.

Yes! LyingWhitchinTheWardrobe
At last a post that I can agree with.
We do need to teach young people about the porn industry and how it bears no resemblance to real life people.

Either in the actual physical characteristics of porn actors or in what they actually do on screen.I
This is what we should be fighting for!

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe yes, those dogs are gorgeous.

And I agree with your observations.

The consultation drew a direct link between anal sex and coercive anal sex and porn. But the reports about it were quite 'nuanced'.

I cannot find the consultation, I think it was 2016.

I found these articles, all old.

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/nov/01/teach-children-about-pornography-before-puberty-says-labour

[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anal-sex-young-people-consultation-dcms-government-tories-worried-thatcher-a6980041.html[[

fightthenewdrug.org/sex-before-kissing-15-year-old-girls-dealing-with-boys/

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anal-sex-young-people-consultation-dcms-government-tories-worried-thatcher-a6980041.html