To think that my PIP assessor has deliberately told lies?

[Godstopper]

Previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

To update: I requested a copy of the assessor's report which arrived today. If the DWP decision maker follow this (as I expect they will), then I will lose £90 a month as I'll only receive standard care. I have a total of ten points: 2 for requiring an aid to bathe and 8 for communicating (deaf).

I recorded the assessment (with permission). The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

Here are some of the lies (I have no qualms about making this public - people need to see what is going on):

Cooking: "Reported restrictions that her partner will do most of the cooking. She feels that she is unsafe due to vertigo, reduced concentration, reduced motivation, requires supervision and prompting to be able to cook. Whilst acknowledging that she receives some cognitive behavioural therapy once a week for her mental health she appears well nourished. Therefore it would be clinically probable that she is able to carry out this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Managing Therapy: "Reports that she is taken to therapy once a week by her partner. Functional history however reports that she will go into therapy on her own. She did not appear withdrawn and did not require prompting. She attends the therapy sessions on her own. Therefore it is clinically probable that she is able to complete this activity independently in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner on the majority of days."

Engaging with People: Reports to have restrictions engaging with others. Functional history reports that she is able to engage with her partner. Informal observations - did not require prompting, did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. Whilst acknowledging that she has cognitive behavioural therapy she did not appear withdrawn or anxious. Therefore it is clinically probable that she can perform this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Mobility: "Reported restriction that she is unsafe due to her deafness and mental health problems. Will attend GP appointments on her own (THE SURGERY IS LITERALLY DOWN THE ROAD!). She did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (!!) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days in a reliable, repeated, and safe manner."

And on it goes.

We are obviously off to appeal: it is now my mission to ensure that the cost of this dwarfs the £90 a month that they will save by awarding me a reduced rate. All lies are on tape. I am also going to do my best to impact her professionally by complaining to her registration body and taking it as far as I possibly can. A complaint about the quality of the report will also be made to ATOS.

Their response will determine if the recording makes it into the public domain. I am not afraid to name and shame either.

She couldn't lie about my deafness (I had an interpreter) but thought she could get me on my MH issues. This is what is happening to vulnerable people under reforms and it's disgusting.

My interpreter has replied!

"I remember this booking. It was obvious to me that the deaf client had mental health issues even before the assessment started. I introduced myself but the lady ‘s partner did the talking with the client making no eye contact and seemed to be distressed. The lady ‘s partner was very pleasant.

I thought the assessor was professional and sympathetic throughout. She asked if the lady was ok to continue when she became upset and she summarized each answer before making her notes. She checked each time if the lady wanted to add anything or was ready to move on to the next question. The assessor frequently apologized for the personal nature of some of the questions. I personally didn't see any issues although I did feel sorry for the lady being assessed as she was clearly distressed and found the interview difficult. Her partner was very supportive of her."

Excellent!

Is that her formal statement, or just your opening conversation?

Because the only material part of it I can see is "the client making no eye contact and seemed to be distressed." Which is good to have.

The rest is neither here nor there with regard to whether the assessor's report is accurate, and whether you meet descriptors.

If you are getting back to her anyway, I wonder if you should give her the paragraphs from the assessor's report wrt to what occurred within the meeting, and ask her to state what (if anything) is inaccurate from her own observation?

Or ask her specific questions:
Did I engage normally with the assessor? If not, in what way did I not do so?

Sorry, that's just a rough attempt. But what will matter will be for the interpreter to report on things she observed that would gain points in the scoring. (Eg the not making eye contact.)

Hi Perking,

I suppose that my concern with asking her specific questions is that they could be construed as pushing her to advocate for me. I was very careful about how I phrased my request and simply said that a dispute had arisen concerning the quality of the report without specifying what that dispute was. I didn't want to lead or make her feel pressured in any way.

I'm also concerned that it's not her role to be getting into the details concerning the report.

I agree the assessor seemed to act professional and was sympathetic: she explained things as we were going along etc. It's not her conduct that's in question but what's in the report vs. what occurred during the assessment.

I need to think more carefully about how I might push for more from the interpreter. As far as I can tell that's her only comment on it. I'm going to submit the e-mail as part of my MR if I can't get anything else from her, and it does corroborate the recording.

I completely understand that.

And her statement does contradict the assessor's supposed observations, so it's valuable to you as it stands.

Tricky one!

Sorry, I mean tricky decision for you. I'm not trying to undermine your decisions!

Well, the main descriptor I want recognition for is engaging with others face-to-face. This is part of why I am in therapy and something that causes issues in daily life. This is the one I've always thought I could prove (I mean things like cooking amounts to your say-so if you have no physical issues), and now my interpreter has given a statement to that effect.

I think I'm going to attach the e-mail to my MR (and the complaint for that matter) with instructions about how to contact her if necessary.

Mm. I think the DWP are extremely unlikely to contact her in good faith - why would they? I linked above showing a Freedom of Information request has revealed the DWP have a target to refuse 80% of MRs.

So you'll have to think carefully about whether to expose her to possible DWP threats of withdrawal of business at the MR stage, or to keep her in your back pocket for the tribunal, possibly to attend as a witness as well as submit the statement.

I'm sorry, I can't actually advise. Just throw more things in the pot for you to think about.

Apparently the 80% target has recently been dropped:

www.careappointments.co.uk/care-news/england/item/43027-growing-proportion-of-people-taking-pip-claim-to-appeal-having-case-upheld

What this mean in practice, I suspect, may well be very different.

It hadn't occurred to me that the DWP may threaten to withdraw business, but I suppose this is not far-fetched. It's one national company that supply interpreters.

At the moment, her statement is good: it contradicts what I am most bothered about on the report - that I was "not anxious", "withdrawn", had "adequate eye contact", "rapport" etc. Though I suppose that the standards for "adequate" eye contact and rapport may be rather low, e.g. if I merely glanced in the vicinity of the assessor then this would construe "adequate eye contact."

"blankets4ever

I think the way they apply the PIP descriptors to real life situations is awful and they will find blatantly unfair reasons for not scoring points, but with regards to the planning a journey descriptor, under the mobility section which only has two descriptors, this is not I don't believe about physical mobility but cognitive problems or extreme anxiety that restrict journeys. They still underscore on this though."

I think it can be both, but it depends on whether the physical mobility restriction has a cognitive or anxiety based origin, and this is where you have to be very clear and extremely organised about your free-text answer if you are hoping for twelve points in the planning and following a journey stage. I'll explain:

The DWP have decided that 'psychological distress' leading to the need to be accompanied on all journeys is not a reason to get enhanced mobility. So they have capped that at 10 points. You need 12 points for enhanced mobility. So unless you have a physical mobility problem, if you have a problem such as anxiety, you're stuck at 10 points. But, what if, say, you have cognitive and psychological issues that impact each other? Or a physical issue (e.g. being deaf) and a psychological issue that impact each other?

If you state the anxiety first, you're stuffed. You'll be pegged at 10 points. That's it. If you use stuff you've already used elsewhere, you may well be stuffed, because they'll think you have already got credit. So you've got to think of it as 'this person knows nothing. Nothing at all about me and my life. And I've got to do them a dot-to-dot of my issues with mobility.'

So, for my Mum (bipolar, severe depression, no danger awareness, no ability to make a decision, just wants to be with her husband, always anxious), I did not focus on anxiety or the fact she won't leave his side. I did the dot-to-dot of

If my mother was asked to go to the local shops on foot for a pint of milk....
a) she wouldn't know how to get there (she's forgotten)
b) she wouldn't make progress on foot (she needs to be led by hand)
c) if she did make progress by foot, she would be at great danger from moving cars (no sense of danger)
d) she would be very vulnerable to the threat of strangers (no danger awareness)
e) she wouldn't be able to buy the milk (has forgotten how to do this)
d) she would become very anxious when she realised she wasn't with my father, and wouldn't know how to get back to him.

So the anxiety came right at the end.

Incidentally, a poster said that if a nurse isn't 'being clinical' they aren't nursing. That isn't true. Nursing registration is maintained by doing 450 hours of nursing activity over 3 years, and clinical, admin and voluntary activity all counts towards that if it is relevant. These sorts of assessments would definitely be classed as relevant activity for the purposes of revalidation.

@lougle, thank you for that explanation, excellent. I am bedridden and can't walk more than the couple of steps required to transfer onto my chemical toilet so I meet 12 points for mobility under 'can walk 1 metre but less than 20 metres.' However, what you shared is useful to know for other friends and generally.

Hi All,

I wanted to update this as the DWP decision came through this morning.

They have gone AGAINST my assessor!

I have standard care and standard mobility (for which the assessor scored me zero).

Their decision does contain errors, namely, about my not appearing anxious and all the rest of it. The points are for issues pertaining to deafness alone: it appears they have placed more emphasis on my G.P report rather than the assessors.

Sooo ..... NO APPEAL!

But ... I still need to think about whether I want to complain about the assessor. The stress has been unreal!

I'm glad it's sorted OP, but you should never have had to go through this in the first place.

Please, please do complain about the assessor. She is dealing with vulnerable people who may not have the attributes you do to fight this. You'd be doing them a disservice to breathe a sigh of relief and let it go, though that would be understandable! If she's done nothing wrong the complaint won't affect her. If it's shown she has, she may change her practice, get more training, or leave so she can't do such a poor job in the future!

Yes, I think I'm going to have to - complain that is.

I mean, how bad must her report have been for the DWP to override it!

The complaint will pertain mostly to mental health issues, and perhaps her lack of understanding of deafness. It comes to something when the DWP letter explicitly mentions this and then says "I have decided you need someone to accompany you to unfamiliar places." This is partly what I spend my DLA on: tickets for my partner to travel with me to places I don't know when needed.

Feeling vindicated today.

Oh thank god for that!

As you say, decision to be made now, about whether also to complain directly to ATOS about the assessor ( the interpreter's letter will be useful evidence for that).

Yes. Her report literally caused panic attacks and my mental health to take a turn for the worse. At least now I have some breathing space to work on things with my therapist.

I won't be going for higher points now. That's just greedy. I'll be pointing out that she basically said I had no MH problems which is at odds with the recording and interpreter's statement. I want an apology and some sort of reassurance that the assessor has at least been spoken to.

Their decision does contain errors, namely, about my not appearing anxious and all the rest of it. The points are for issues pertaining to deafness alone: it appears they have placed more emphasis on my G.P report rather than the assessors.

Not necessarily. My friends went against the assessor on the info that she herself had provided by the info filled out on forms.

There was no way the assessors findings go along with the condition she has. I wonder if DWP knew that they would lose an appeal so awarded the way they did.

Yes, I had something similar - ATOS threw out their own report (because my complaint reached them before the DWP decision) because it was clear the assessor hadn't assessed the condition I was reporting.

DWP has awarded you middle rate, you don't complain because you're afraid of losing appeal (fair enough); meanwhile it may be that you're eligible for higher rate. Win for DWP because they've got you in a bind.

I think trying to get points for my MH issues now would likely lead to a shorter award. In that sense, there is a bind. Plus I am in therapy and trying to work on things. Overall, I believe I have the right level of award now even though I disagree with the way it is made up.

Yes, the decision letter also says they used my PIP form.

It says:

"Your reported restriction is that you are unsafe due to your deafness. I decided you need another person to help you follow the route of an unfamiliar journey."

My assessor wrote:

"Will attend GP appointments on her own. Whilst acknowledging that she goes for cognitive behaviour therapy she did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (not a typo) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days ..."

So it looks like the decision maker ignored the MH stuff that the assessor wrote and focused on the issues navigating unfamiliar places due to being deaf. I've said all along this was the more serious issue for me and I feel vindicated that this has now been acknowledged.

My dd had a terrible time, is very disabled but really fit according to pip. Lost car and a lot of benefits, appeals take so long and I am

so far away and poorly myself. Assessor was
a f g bit*ch

It's awful. Just awful. I've worked in social care for twenty years helping people with benefits etc and the humiliation, the difficulty in even getting to the assessments and the lies they tell are off the scale. I am so 😡

I'm so glad for you!

I'm so glad for you!

Godstopper I haven’t RTT (apologies, I nearly always do) but just wanted to say bloody well done.
I spent 10 years working as a CPN in a team for young people with psychosis and was there when they bought in these ridiculous assessments. The first one I went to was with a woman who had been in hospital for 9 months and had been seen by 10 different psychiatrists who had all given her a diagnosis of schizophrenia.
The nurse doing the assessment ‘respectfully submitted’ that this woman did not have a severe mental illness. Her main rationale for this decision was that she ‘was fashionably dressed’ and ‘did not display rocking movements’.
I have had a client be declared fit for work 2 days before she got sectioned.
I have a 100% success rate of appealing for clients turned down for ESA/PIP.
I went to one appeal where the judge was practically hanging her head in shame and just said,’ I’m so sorry. We don’t need to ask you any questions’.
It’s shameful the amount of distress these assessments cause people.

No words really is there, Hoolies.

One of the things I've found most problematic about this is how a nurse/paramedic/physio etc. who has only met you for an hour is somehow deemed to have a more informed opinion of your abilities than those who have been treating you for years - well, in my case, the DWP obviously thought she was partly in error.

So incredibly relieved today. For all my talk, I don't know if my mental health could have withstood a tribunal and all of the waiting that that entails. Now I can focus on getting better. :)

Best of luck. It’s hard enough without this shit