To think that my PIP assessor has deliberately told lies?

[Godstopper]

Previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

To update: I requested a copy of the assessor's report which arrived today. If the DWP decision maker follow this (as I expect they will), then I will lose £90 a month as I'll only receive standard care. I have a total of ten points: 2 for requiring an aid to bathe and 8 for communicating (deaf).

I recorded the assessment (with permission). The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

Here are some of the lies (I have no qualms about making this public - people need to see what is going on):

Cooking: "Reported restrictions that her partner will do most of the cooking. She feels that she is unsafe due to vertigo, reduced concentration, reduced motivation, requires supervision and prompting to be able to cook. Whilst acknowledging that she receives some cognitive behavioural therapy once a week for her mental health she appears well nourished. Therefore it would be clinically probable that she is able to carry out this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Managing Therapy: "Reports that she is taken to therapy once a week by her partner. Functional history however reports that she will go into therapy on her own. She did not appear withdrawn and did not require prompting. She attends the therapy sessions on her own. Therefore it is clinically probable that she is able to complete this activity independently in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner on the majority of days."

Engaging with People: Reports to have restrictions engaging with others. Functional history reports that she is able to engage with her partner. Informal observations - did not require prompting, did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. Whilst acknowledging that she has cognitive behavioural therapy she did not appear withdrawn or anxious. Therefore it is clinically probable that she can perform this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Mobility: "Reported restriction that she is unsafe due to her deafness and mental health problems. Will attend GP appointments on her own (THE SURGERY IS LITERALLY DOWN THE ROAD!). She did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (!!) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days in a reliable, repeated, and safe manner."

And on it goes.

We are obviously off to appeal: it is now my mission to ensure that the cost of this dwarfs the £90 a month that they will save by awarding me a reduced rate. All lies are on tape. I am also going to do my best to impact her professionally by complaining to her registration body and taking it as far as I possibly can. A complaint about the quality of the report will also be made to ATOS.

Their response will determine if the recording makes it into the public domain. I am not afraid to name and shame either.

She couldn't lie about my deafness (I had an interpreter) but thought she could get me on my MH issues. This is what is happening to vulnerable people under reforms and it's disgusting.

Yes, and those more needy people are the ones dying because of the dishonest behaviour of assessors.

It's absolutely correct that someone who can fight this at a structural level, such as the OP, does so. For the longterm benefit of others.

Saying, "Oh the systems crap and full of liars but it doesn't affect me too badly so I'll just leave it" doesn't help anyone.

it shows that your anxiety is not at a level crippling enough to never leave the front door

Sorry. But its often a no from them too.

I'm sorry, boston, did you just say that it is wrong to try to sanction a nurse for lying in their professional role?

WTAF?

Do you think a nurse lying is OK?

Whether they're working for the NHS or for the DWP or for a nursing home or whatever?

@Godstopper please don't be put off from complaining about the assessor who clearly lied on your assessment because of a few professionally offended.

Same here, whatsallthis and lougle, I went from high dla on both elements to the lowest level pip care and no mobility by trying to be positive, friendly and attempting everything they asked, even though I said that this would aggravate my conditions. They didnt see that I then spent the rest of week in bed too sore for anything.

She seemed so understanding at the time, but her report had me in tears as she dismissed everything I'd told her with "x claims they're unable to xx xx, but in MY opinion, based on our talk and what I observed, x IS able to do this and so is awarded 0 points.

I was really scared to appeal in case I ended up with nothing and mentally I knew I'd struggle to cope, but my oh really helped with the forms, etc, and attended the assesment, appeal, etc, with me. I ended up with high care, low mobility and although I think I should be on high for both as I fail at the safely, repeatedly and reliably bit (esp. the repeatedly bit) with mobility. I have to pace myself so if I have a busy day I'll then be housebound for at least the next day, or longer, as I'm in so much pain.

I think my biggest problem, and why it goes against me, is that except for my walking stick, I look fine because you can't see the pain or what's going on inside my body.

Sorry, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But I can't think of any other interpretation of
"you accusing a nurse who was doing her job, of lying and you going after her simply for that".

When what the OP is "going after" her for is the lying.

Oh there are certainly people worse than me MH wise. I was never going for higher points on many of the activities. I said yes to four. And two of those were for only two points.

The GP issue is because she seems to have used that to show that I can go to unfamiliar places on my own. This is a lie. She's also made this question 100% about my mental health when it's deafness that is the greater problem for planning and following journeys (just the following part). The descriptor mentions profoundly deaf people and I thought thank goodness for that as I've had all sorts of incidents on public transport, some quite serious. But no, she's made it all about mental health.

That's partly what I meant by a lack of understanding of deafness: it's not just about the ability to hear people.

@ilovetvandchocolates you're welcome. Please try and get some legal help if you can. If you can pay for it, great. If not welfare rights and law centres will help with MRs and tribunal submissions for free but you do need to give them plenty of notice. Think our local one is running at an 8 week waiting time for appointments and that's as soon as they can get it.

The assessor may have been a nurse, but they are not "nursing" in this context. Thankfully! Being a nurse who is not doing nursing at the time does not = clinical.

I'm fascinated by all of the stories about people who manage to game the system and get benefits they should really be entitled to, my own experience (purely anecdotal I know) is that back in around 2011 when I applied for DLA I simply could not get it. I was completely entitled to it by the guidelines. I had consultant letters backing everything up. I was on massive amounts of opiates daily to try function. I had an actual chronic pain disability that was proven medically.

I applied and was rejected. Twice. And rejected on appeal, so I let it just go. Had too much else on my plate. I couldn't understand it then and I still don't, it felt like a very cruel kick in the teeth.

I was employed but the issue was my condition was so severe (and was still being experimentally treated with different procedures and drugs) I was losing so many days at work being physically in too much pain to stand up i ran out of sick pay and came close to losing my job a lot, I wasn't being paid so couldn't pay the rent. I'm not saying the DLA would have helped me counteract all of that but it was desperately needed money that I was entitled to according to the guidelines and was refused.

In the end it just took too long to get it to a functional place (my disability) and as I couldn't physically work and there was no help available from anyone I wound up having to pay bills and rent on credit cards and overdrafts and loans and ultimately went bankrupt at 24.

To put it into perspective it's a good outcome I guess as I'm 29 now and still suffer badly with it but in the last couple years my pain regimen has helped massively and I don't have to miss much work due to it anymore. Though I have just had to take 80mg morphine to be able to get out of bed. That's most days.

So I'm completely dumbfounded at all of these stories of people fraudulently claiming. I used to work in substance misuse and never knew a single person who managed to get it for that even though when I last looked serious substance misuse problems were classed as a mental health disability and you could also get carers allowance for caring for someone who dealt with it. Again, nope. I cared for my mum (willingly) at great personal expense for the year before she died of alcoholism, she was immobile for that last year due to so much muscle wastage she couldn't walk. Applied on the advice of my uni and both rejected.

There's no perfect system where only the ones who are eligible get it, nobody ineligible doesn't and everyone eligible does, but I'd much much rather my tax goes toward ensuring the balance is swung in the other direction. I'd much rather a proportion of claimants get a benefit they're not entitled to if it means fewer actual eligible people suffering and being rejected. It's barbaric and there's no accountability.

Thanks for the well wishes for my terminally ill friend guys.

You're doing a good thing OP. You're speaking for many who are unable to fight back.

Duchess,

I am still complaining about her. My mental state examination (the criteria of which are a joke, but that's a separate issue) portrays me as a friendly, chatty person not remotely anxious. I agree with parts of it (I mean, "normal facial expression", WTF) but other parts simply aren't true. I don't think it's a co-incidence that she's used some things that obviously won't show up.on the recording to justify zero points.

2Cold,

That's exactly it. Those with less visible disabilities and/or fluctuating conditions are likely going to struggle. My deafness is beyond a doubt: she just could not say I heard her when I needed an interpreter. So she got me on something less visible.

I've never been particularly demonstrative. Usually it's just eye contact that I can't stand as well as people in my personal space: doesn't mean I'm not anxious. The criteria seem to imply that those with MH issues need to be behaving like someone from a Victorian lunatic asylum to score points. I didn't perform to a significant degree. That would have been fraud. So I lost points.

Lemon,

I really don't know what to say. It is a pity you cannot bill the DWP for debt you ran up partly due to not receiving what you were entitled to.

The £90 reduction is not overly worrisome to me. I note the attitude of some who say we are all experiencing cuts so suck it up. But for some that cut would be something like 10% + of their already limited income. I assume the same people would also be happy to receive a 10% + pay cut to save costs.

It took me years of applying to get it as well, lemon. As I mentioned previously I don't look particularly disabled, and years ago I'd rather not go out than use a stick, which probably also didn't help, but I'm on permanent morphine for my pain.

I'd love to not take any drugs, but I'd never leave my bed without them. I was told that my meds help me manage so I didn't require any help. Yeah, they do, but I shouldn't have to take meds just to function and without them I'd be stuck.

It was like catch 22: No drugs would mean..."well, you can't be that bad if you don't need drugs to manage", but with the drugs it was like, "well, the drugs help you manage so you don't need help!!!"

Forget all the evidence, scans, doctors' letters, etc, I don't look that bad, so I must be fine.

I gave up trying to get it for many years as they made me feel so bad about myself and I was so stressed by the whole thing, that it triggered a really bad, depressive time and I ended up suicidal and on prozac, but as my conditions are degenerative I've just become worse with time, and I thought, sod it, I'm entitled to it and I started the process again. I still had to go to the highest tribunal the 1st time though, and the ppl there were appalled that I'd had to take it that far.

I dreaded the move to PIP, and with good reason, as it turns out. I think my biggest problem is that I try to focus on what I can do, and gloss over what I struggle with. Also, I have some better (good) days and as soon as I said that, I'd lost. What they didn't ask/hear/know is that my good days come at a price:

Either, I'm having a good day because I've been in bed for the past few days and/or haven't done anything to aggravate my conditions ( ie, I haven't really moved or used my hands or done anything except watch tv & sleep).
Or, I've taken more meds & dosed myself right up, so that I'm able to go on a day out and join in with my family, knowing that I will suffer for it later and won't be able to get out of bed for at least 1/2 days afterwards.

lemon, what helped me get it is ppl giving advice on how to fill in the forms and how to not even leave the basics out. Also, a pp wrote a thread to help ppl get pip as she's any assessor herself and her advice was invaluable (pretty sure it's already been linked near the top of this thread).

I now base my answers on my worse days, rather than my occasional good days. It seems a very pessimistic thing to do, but it's the only way to ensure you stand a chance of being accepted.

It's a very draining process, both mentally and physically though, and that's even with my oh helping me get through it.

Hi Janey,

At my assessment I too was led to believe that engaging socially was exclusively about mental health. I mean it's commonsense that if a condition impacts your ability to do so then it should be taken into account, but apparently not.

In my case I explained that it was a combination of MH issues and deafness, and that the two are related. For example, not being able to follow what is being said naturally causes anxiety. My partner will help me compensate for my inability to follow the flow of a conversation: it is embarrassing to find myself leaping in with something irrelevant or talking over others. I cannot tell when it is my turn to speak, am the last to get the point of something. I thought my partner facilitating social interaction constituted "social support."

Beyond that she speaks to people we deal with in public, e.g. bus drivers, shop assistants etc as I will often only hear part of what is said or not at all.

I suppose the assumption is that it's covered by my 8 points for communication support. But helping someone to communicate and helping them to integrate socially are surely two different things.

The thought of explaining all this again in the MR is filling me with nothing but dread.

I used to work in a Jobcentre years ago, dealing with JSA claimants. Even behaving like someone from a Victorian lunatic asylum wouldn't get you awarded ESA/DLA/PIP in some cases, it is beyond farce! I've had to interview people who'd just been turned down and told to apply for JSA instead - only there's no way on earth they were eligible for JSA either as they could not fulfil any condition that would make them able to look for or complete any sort of work. I'll always remember one poor young lad who'd just been discharged from a mental health unit, he was completely incoherent and terrified due to paranoid schizophrenia. I could get no coherent answers to any questions so couldn't even put his claim through. I phoned the ESA dept afterwards and complained as I was so disgusted. He did get it awarded eventually but only because his social worker went way beyond her job description, it still took months.

Someone assessors do lie. Intentionally. I didn't used to want to believe this but there can be no other explanation for what happened to my neighbour. He is an amputee, has serious problems with his remaining leg meaning he'll lose it soon as well. He has end stage heart failure, cirrhosis of the liver, blackouts, fits, vertigo, phantom limb pain that has him screaming uncontrollably for hours, and, unsurprisingly, MH issues including agoraphobia and extreme paranoia of others especially doctors/social workers/carers/Council officials. His house is 100x worse than anything on Hoarders or Life of Grime as he refuses to let anyone in to help. He can't get upstairs to the bathroom so urinate in bottles and defecates in bin bags (yeah the rest of the street love him...). I took him to his assessment (1st time he'd left home in 19 months). He hadn't bathed or washed bar an odd run of his face with a baby wipe for almost two years - in reception and the assessment room the staff were opening windows and not so subtle trying not to breathe.

Anyway, the PHYSIOTHERAPIST (you know, familiar with issues surrounding limb loss I imagine?) wrote a report which stated that he had a normal range of movement in both legs and ankles - it wasn't an error as each side was written about separately. You'd think a physio would be able to spot an entire missing leg? Apparently he 'refused' to perform certain movements so no comment could be made in his physical fitness in those areas - so saying you can't stand on your right leg because you don't have one is now 'refusing' to cooperate is it? He got 0 points in most areas and his claim was denied. He'd been on sickness benefits for over 30 years and his conditions have only deteriorated in that time, all of a sudden a miracle occurs when he is wheeled into ATOS? Amazing! We even had to rush through the last couple of questions quickly and leave sharpish as he wet himself near the end, poor bastard. The assessor couldn't get us out quick enough so I'd naively assumed no one would claim this man was fit for work... After he won at Tribunal, months later, the Dwp rep came up to us and sneered 'We WILL be appealing this decision, you know' as if he was disgusted we'd got away with some sort of fraud. He was reassessed again within six months - I told him under no circumstances should he try to go to a relatives for a bath, wash and cut his long matted hair, wear clothes washed in the last 3 months or try to use his walking stick to go to the Tribunal or reassessment. He'd intended to make a good impression as he worried he'd been turned down for being too scruffy and smelly so they'd thought he was over egging it. I'd figured out this would go against him massively by then.

It's changed so, so much now. 20 years ago my ex claimed Incapacity Benefit due to mild depression as the jobcentre told him to. He had one appointment with a (then) Benefits Agency doctor, who gave him a sick note for 12 months and he was awarded the money within days! He didn't even think he was depressed particularly, he was just fed up with being unemployed. He certainly never asked for a year's sick note. But back then it was all 'get them off JSA and into Incapacity Benefit to juke the stats'.

Sorry about the essay above.

Anyway, my mither was a Decision Maker for 35 years for the DWP, some of that time dealing with sickness and disability benefits. Even then she thought the system was too harsh in many cases and felt sorry for her team's claimants/customers. She did also see one or two blatant fraud cases too, but even she would admit this was rare and not worth tightening up even more for.

After retirement she started volunteering for Welfare Rights, they snapped her up because she knows all the legislation, policies and procedures. She works in a very deprived ex pit town and has been absolutely appalled by the way claimants are treated and the blatant lies told after these assessments. She represents people at Tribunals and says judges/panels are often just as disgusted. She has a completely different view point on all of it now as feels ashamed she ever worked there (despite doing her best and being well known as a lenient decision maker).

She even had one guy who missed his assessment due to being in hospital following a bad fit - the assessor filled in the report as if he'd been there, submitted it, and he was awarded the same rate as before! Makes me wonder if more people are prefilling forms in beforehand than was shown on that documentary and just making blatant lies up. Either that or she saw someone else entirely who was in the waiting room and they're wondering why they are being told they missed their appointment! Worst of all, the guy is so happy with the award he's refusing to complain and tell them about this!

Lastly then I'll stop rambling on - absolutely do not make any special effort for assessments. Dress as you would on your worst day. Answer all questions as things are on your worst day. Don't try to be polite and friendly, that makes you 'able to communicate normally most of the time'. Use every aid you need. Don't put a brave face on, tell them explicitly how you feel and what impact it is having right now 'I'm feeling so upset now, I need to stop for a bit as I'm shaking too much'. Don't reassure then how well other people help you to cope, just tell then you are on x medication but you are unable to open the packets it comes in. You are incontinent and can't change yourself frequently due to mobility. You can't wash your hair. Don't push open the door to the room yourself, at great difficulty. Stand there and tell them they'll have to open it as you can't. Don't lie, but don't give them extraneous irrelevant information that they will twist round to claim that you can cope just fine day to day. And definitely record the interview and every phone call you have. Every time. Don't give in, that's what they want you to do. Appeal, appeal, appeal and sue them where possible.

Gosh, don't apologise for your posts.

I think some people only believe there are some actual bald-faced liars at the DWP, ATOS and Capita when they hear it from people like you and your mother who've worked on the JobCentre/DWP/Welfare Rights side.

It comes to something when you have actual ex-employees emerging to say how corrupt the process is.

Your neighbour, from your description, obviously has complex high-level support needs. Refusing to stand on a non-existent leg? Seriously!

I think what disturbs me so much about this is that medical professionals take an oath to do no harm: when they deliberately lie and obfuscate they are doing exactly the opposite.

Roomba: I'm slightly confused about the role of the decision maker. Do most of them just rubber stamp reports? Doesn't sound like your mum did, especially if there were discrepancies. In my case, I can't see why the decision maker would go against it. If you take it at face-value, it appears plausible; but if you put it next to my GP letter there are gigantic contradictions. However, I believe the line is that GP's diagnose and are not in a position to judge functional effects. Moreover, they may be advocating on behalf of the claimant.

It's insane: you are asked to supply GP evidence; but if it doesn't confirm the outcome that they want, then it's suddenly ignored.

Perking,

When this is over, I am giving some thought as to how I might try and help people going through this process. I think there needs to be some sort of charity and perhaps a service that loans out recording equipment. Mine cost me a total of £70 (x2 recorders @ 24.99, £20 for tapes and batteries) which is probably beyond the means of many claiming, and that was about the cheapest I could find.

I don't think it's a co-incidence that claimants are asked to supply their own recording equipment. They know that most can't.

This is quite disturbing:

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/pip-investigation-welfare-expert-says-two-thirds-of-appeals-involve-lying-assessors/

Two thirds! Assessor's who lie are ultimately responsible for the misuse of public funds when their report forms the basis of an appeal. And yet there are zero repercussions. It's astonishing.

I was told not to get out of bed to do the exercises because the assessor could see I was in too much pain. Then he wrote in his report that I refused to move for the exercises so he could only assume that I was completely mobile.