To think that my PIP assessor has deliberately told lies?

[Godstopper]

Previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

To update: I requested a copy of the assessor's report which arrived today. If the DWP decision maker follow this (as I expect they will), then I will lose £90 a month as I'll only receive standard care. I have a total of ten points: 2 for requiring an aid to bathe and 8 for communicating (deaf).

I recorded the assessment (with permission). The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

Here are some of the lies (I have no qualms about making this public - people need to see what is going on):

Cooking: "Reported restrictions that her partner will do most of the cooking. She feels that she is unsafe due to vertigo, reduced concentration, reduced motivation, requires supervision and prompting to be able to cook. Whilst acknowledging that she receives some cognitive behavioural therapy once a week for her mental health she appears well nourished. Therefore it would be clinically probable that she is able to carry out this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Managing Therapy: "Reports that she is taken to therapy once a week by her partner. Functional history however reports that she will go into therapy on her own. She did not appear withdrawn and did not require prompting. She attends the therapy sessions on her own. Therefore it is clinically probable that she is able to complete this activity independently in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner on the majority of days."

Engaging with People: Reports to have restrictions engaging with others. Functional history reports that she is able to engage with her partner. Informal observations - did not require prompting, did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. Whilst acknowledging that she has cognitive behavioural therapy she did not appear withdrawn or anxious. Therefore it is clinically probable that she can perform this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Mobility: "Reported restriction that she is unsafe due to her deafness and mental health problems. Will attend GP appointments on her own (THE SURGERY IS LITERALLY DOWN THE ROAD!). She did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (!!) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days in a reliable, repeated, and safe manner."

And on it goes.

We are obviously off to appeal: it is now my mission to ensure that the cost of this dwarfs the £90 a month that they will save by awarding me a reduced rate. All lies are on tape. I am also going to do my best to impact her professionally by complaining to her registration body and taking it as far as I possibly can. A complaint about the quality of the report will also be made to ATOS.

Their response will determine if the recording makes it into the public domain. I am not afraid to name and shame either.

She couldn't lie about my deafness (I had an interpreter) but thought she could get me on my MH issues. This is what is happening to vulnerable people under reforms and it's disgusting.

I had the fast heart rate alright. That's not an outward sign unless you take someone's pulse.

I never made eye contact. I coped by looking at my notes/the floor/the assessor's screen. But my report says "adequate eye contact' which is also used to justify things.

I positioned my chair facing away the assessor as far as I could whilst still being able to read the interpreters screen. I did a fair amount of deep breathing. That one doesn't display " sweating" or "trembling" doesn't man that one isn't anxious. I typically freeze physically.

I can be heard saying I need time to answer many questions as I felt panicky. I guess because I was not acting like an extra from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest that was discounted.

I certainly didn't display some of the more visible signs of anxiety on their mental state examination. I was surprised though to discover I looked at the assessor, had a rapport, and was not withdrawn.

crying is not a clinical sign of anxiety....

I'm going to take a punt and suggest you clearly know very little about anxiety.

if crying alone was a clinical sign of anxiety, we'd all be able to claim PIP wouldnt we...

Point taken re the inaccuracy (potential dishonesty) of her comments re eye contact etc.

It was the "I'm going to do my best to impact her professionally, I'm going to report her to her professional body and take it as far as I can....I [may] take it to the public domain, I am not afraid to name and shame" that sounded like a witch hunt to me for the record.

By all means appeal if they've got it wrong, but please keep in mind the above. This person is just doing their job and the tone of your post sounds like you are frankly on a bit of a witch hunt against this person and it makes uncomfortable reading.
It has been clearly demonstrate (filmed) that some assessors lie. I don't care how uncomfortable you find it reading about things that happen to people with disabilities, this is our reality. The assessor on my first assessment lied. She also knew (and admitted to knowing nothing) about Asperger Syndrome. She no longer works for the company as there were so many complaints about her. Oh, and she was in the papers for er, lying.

Well if there’s potential dishonesty what’s wrong with taking it as far as you can?

I'm going to do my best to impact her professionally, I'm going to report her to her professional body and take it as far as I can....I [may] take it to the public domain, I am not afraid to name and shame"

So what if she does? The OP is well within her rights to.

So you were in fact showing the clinical sign for anxiety.

See, if she'd written that she did not know if you were showing signs of anxiety, she could be technically correct: she didn't know.

But since she wrote that you weren't showing such a sign, when she knew she didn't know, that makes it over the threshold to a deliberate untruth.

‘Just doing their job’ well there are lots of ways to just do your job and as I well know lots of those ways mean NOT actually doing your job at all

So no professional should ever be complained about? Nice

Well no Boston because I didnt say crying alone, it was you that wrongly stated it isn't a symptom of anxiety. I was just pointing out you were wrong.

No Bourdic. Just in case they are you know, held accountable for their actions. I mean, the audacity of it all...

I'm going to court to fight my daughter's pip case. I have no representative. Does anyone have any advice? Will I be asked to speak, can I defend her case? Her consultant believes she has a very strong case and should win the appeal but I feel like her medical evidence has already been disregarded so why would court change anything!

Different context but remember Hillsborough? All those people doing their jobs - policemen, journalists and many many many of them lying? And the fight to get that acknowledged?

Hi Hungrymum,

I can understand why I might have appeared vindictive. I was (am but less so) hurt and angry to receive something which basically calls me a liar concerning mental health issues. Her lack of understanding of deafness is also apparent from her remark about it possibly "fluctuating", but not one that massively impacts me.

I simply want an acknowledgement of the issues concerning the report from ATOS and an assurance that it will be investigated. I don't know how the NMC deal with things. But it'll be enough if it's registered.

@ilovetvandchocolates no you won't be allowed to talk for her, and they get very pissy if you try. Friends/ family attending tribunal with the claimant are often allowed an opportunity to say something at the end which is where you can say what you want but make sure you keep it relevant. (to the appeal - your daughter).

Tribunals are very different to the PIP application and the MR. The decision makers almost always have no medical training and this is what is relied on. They know the Decision Makers will take the DAs word for it. A huge percentage of PIP appeals are still turned down at MR but still go on to win at tribunal. Good luck.

Boston, you have repeatedly used the word "clinical", what does it mean in the context of these interviews?

I don't know your particular circumstances. But the system needs to be reformed. And only people truly in need of this extra money should be getting it. Lots of people have anxiety. They can't all get PIP. The whole country would be on it.

If the nurse was going by the clinical descriptors of anxiety then @bostonkremekrazy is correct - crying is not a symptom of anxiety.

It is so hard to get PIP - even inpatients on our acute mental health wards struggle to get PIP and we know all the pointers to assist them .

@DuchessofLondon thank you, I almost didn't appeal but her nurse pushed me to. I feel like even if it's lost at least I tried.

I don't think that lots of people have PTSD though, Vivienne. Anxiety is one, but far from the only, manifestation of it in my case.

The DLA fraud rate is estimated to be about 0.7%. It costs billions less than tax fraud. I don't see a similar outcry about that oddly enough.

the assessor was a nurse so her opinion or assessment was 'clinical'.
if the assessor was a doctor the opinion would have been 'medical'.

when i used the word 'opinion' earlier PP were cross and so i changed my language for clarity to avoid this.

And it doesnt really come into it if your GP is only down the rd - it shows that your anxiety is not at a level crippling enough to never leave the front door .

Anxiety can literally stop someone from putting one front in front of the other and take them twenty minutes to get from one side of the room to another.

I know its not want you to hear but i also have a chronic illness , am disabled had my PIP cut but accept that there are always people more needy than me - people without a partner , people without family .

I do agree with you @Godstopper, the system sucks. One day my disabled children will have to transfer from dla to pip, and I'm not looking forward to it.

I do wish your case well.

My gripe was with you accusing a nurse who was doing her job, of lying and you going after her simply for that. I hope that was - as you said - your initial anger, and that you plough your energies into fighting the DWP, and you get the award you deserve and need.

good luck

NoMudNoLotus No Boston isn't. When DM was in hospital recovering from an op. She was very tearful. They brought a psychiatrist down. You'll never guess what the psychiatrist diagnosed her with...